Grčka - enormni dug, protesti oko mera štednje

[Prospero]

Dugovi moraju da se vrate 

 

Lepo reče Yolo, nek Rusi parkiraju "Admirala Kuznjecova" ispred Pireja i spice will flow :D

[MancMellow]

buk'alno

[Shan Jan]

Sha ce ti Admiral Kuznjecov, dovoljno je par teretnjaka sa Armatama. Ne bi stigli ni do Bosfora a vec bi evro skocio ko lud jer je dil postignut

 

BTW, di li je sada PPP "dug se mora platiti" ekipa?

[Budja]

Dug se mora platiti se ne menja.

 

To sto IMF signalizira da ga Ukrajina ne mora platiti, znaci da ce Ukrajina tesko u bliskoj buducnosti da nadje privatnog investitora za svoje obveznice, pa ce im troskovi kamate fino skociti, taman da pojede ono sto im IMF da.

 

Slicno je i Ekvador bankrotirao 2010., po zapadnim medijima se hvalila umesnost Koree u bankrotu, e da bi ekvaodrski dug pet godina kasnije bio gotovo najskuplji na svetu i vec su troskovi tog duga naspram ocekivanog pojeli efekte ustedjene bankrotom.

 

 

Sto se ECBa tice, monetizacija duga ce takodje jednog dana morati da se plati, samo sto ce to na duzi rok uz veci bailout. Uvek "liberalni" The Economist kaze da nije vreme za dizanje kamata. Lepo, jos jedno pet-sest godina pa ce posle da kazu, slicno Grinspanu, izvinite zajebali smo se kada ce od tri evropske banke ostati jedna.

[MancMellow]

Da, ali ovde poenta nije naravoučenije za Ukrajinu, nego o politika MMF-a :)

 

Ne da se ja ne znam kako zgražavam, sve je to politika i sve je to u rok službe, samo čisto ponekad je zanimljivo kad se neki ljudi uhvate principa (hej, principa  :D ) u ovako nečemu, pa im se naslika ovako plastično koliko principi vrede  ^_^

 

ne mislim na forum, da pojasnim pojašnjenje...

Edited June 14, 2015 by MancMellow

[Prospero]

S tim da Ukrajina ne duguje MMF-u te pare na kojima postoji mogućnost bankrota, nego privatnim investitorima, pa je MMF galantnije ruke jer nije njegova koža u pitanju. :D

[MancMellow]

Ali će zato posle ovoga definitivno dugovati (i) njima  ^_^

[Prospero]

Ako uopšte uzmu taj novac, MMF im stalno odugovlači tranše zbog manjka reformi.

[Eraserhead]

Plus Ukrajina i Grcka nisu u istoj situaciji otud bi drugaciji tretman imao smisla.

[Anduril]

Da, ali ovde poenta nije naravoučenije za Ukrajinu, nego o politika MMF-a :)

 

Ne da se ja ne znam kako zgražavam, sve je to politika i sve je to u rok službe, samo čisto ponekad je zanimljivo kad se neki ljudi uhvate principa (hej, principa  :D ) u ovako nečemu, pa im se naslika ovako plastično koliko principi vrede  ^_^

 

ne mislim na forum, da pojasnim pojašnjenje...

 

Koji tacno principi i ko ih se toliko drzi? Izjave politicara nisu principi.

Jedini princip mozda jeste da u politici tesko da ima principa.

Ima nekih trendova koji su uslovljenji kompleksnim odnosima a principi spadaju u pravne a ne politicke vode.

[vememah]

I dalje ništa od dogovora. Grci predali novi predlog koji nije dovoljno dobar.

 

 

 

Greece rejects pension and wage cuts, VAT hike on power

ATHENS, June 14

Greek negotiators have submitted a counter-proposal to international creditors at talks in Brussels, a government official said on Sunday, adding that Athens will never accept demands for cuts to pensions and wages, or a rise in value-added tax on electricity.

Greece is trying to agree a cash-for-reforms deal with the European Union and IMF before the end of the month, when it faces a debt default unless it can secure fresh funds.

The delegation had submitted supplementary proposals which fully cover the fiscal gap and the primary surpluses, the official said, adding that these were "proposals which open the way for the final agreement that will cover all three - fiscal, funding and growth - pillars.

"The Greek delegation remains ready to complete the negotiations and reach a mutually beneficial solution."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/14/eurozone-greece-official-idUSA8N0YJ00Q20150614

 

U međuvremenu u Grčkoj ekstremnije krilo Sirize pravi planove za islandsku varijantu defaulta uz Grexit i nacionalizaciju banaka i ograničenje kretanja kapitala, a mlađi koalicioni partner ANEL je navodno saglasan.

 

The radical wing of Greece's Syriza party is to table plans over coming days for an Icelandic-style default and a nationalisation of the Greek banking system, deeming it pointless to continue talks with Europe's creditor powers.

 

Syriza sources says measures being drafted include capital controls and the establishment of a sovereign central bank able to stand behind a new financial system. While some form of dual currency might be possible in theory, such a structure would be incompatible with euro membership and would imply a rapid return to the drachma.

 

The confidential plans were circulating over the weekend and have the backing of 30 MPs from the Aristeri Platforma or 'Left Platform', as well as other hard-line groupings in Syriza's spectrum. It is understood that the nationalist ANEL party in the ruling coalition is also willing to force a rupture with creditors, if need be.

 

"This goes well beyond the Left Platform. We are talking serious numbers," said one Syriza MP involved in the draft.

 

"We are all horrified by the idea of surrender, and we will not allow ourselves to be throttled to death by European monetary union," he told the Telegraph.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/11673989/Syriza-Left-demands-Icelandic-default-as-Greek-defiance-stiffens.html

 

 

Edited June 14, 2015 by vememah

[MancMellow]

Koji tacno principi i ko ih se toliko drzi?

 

Niko, to i kazem

[vememah]

 Jos malo iz Telegrafovog članka:

 

"The Greek banks must be nationalised immediately, along with the creation of a bad bank. There may have to be some restrictions on cash withdrawals," said one Syriza MP.

 

"The banks will go ape-s*** of course. We are aware that there will be a lot of lawsuits but at the end of the day we are a sovereign power," he said.

 

Deposit outflows from the banks are running near €400m a day and could at any moment turn into a national bank run. This is alarming in one sense, but it has advantages for Syriza hard-liners.

 

...

 

"The more the deposit flight goes on, the easier Grexit will be," said one Syriza official. "It is a trump card," said another.

 

Syriza has a strong ideological motive to strike at the financial elites. They view the banks as the nerve centre of an entrenched oligarchy that has run the country for half a century as a family business. Forcing these institutions into bankruptcy provides cover for a socio-political purge, best understood as a revolution.

 

...

 

Iceland's internal banking system was rebuilt from scratch under state control with public funds equal to 30pc of GDP, and was shielded by capital controls. The boards were sacked. Some executives were prosecuted.

 

The banks kept their old names to maintain continuity for depositors but they were essentially new institutions. Iceland gradually recovered and has since racked up impressive growth. Contrary to apocalyptic warnings, a 50pc devaluation proved to be part of the cure.

 

However, Iceland has a very different society and economic structure. Quick stabilisation was possible only because the IMF and the Nordic countries stepped in with a $5bn rescue package.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/11673989/Syriza-Left-demands-Icelandic-default-as-Greek-defiance-stiffens.html

 

A evo i grčke verzije događaja:

 

[vememah]

 Predsednik SPD-a i nemački vicekancelar Gabrijel u Bildu oštro po Grcima:

 

German vice-chancellor warns Athens that patience running thin

 

FRANKFURT, June 14 (Reuters) - Patience with Greece is wearing thin, Germany's vice-chancellor has said, in a blunt warning to Athens that addressed the possibility the country could even leave the euro zone.

 

The comments in a newspaper from Sigmar Gabriel, head of the Social Democrats (SPD), who have generally been sympathetic to Greece, shows a hardening of attitudes towards Athens across the political spectrum in euro zone paymaster Germany.

 

Writing in newspaper Bild, Gabriel said: "We want to help Greece and also keep them in the euro. But not only is time running out but so too is patience across Europe. Everywhere in Europe, the sentiment is growing that enough is enough."

 

"The shadow of an exit of Greece from the euro zone takes on ever clearer shape," he wrote.

 

"Repeated apparently final attempts to reach a deal are starting to make the whole process look ridiculous. There is an ever greater number of people who feel as if the Greek government is giving them the run-around."

 

The remarks from Gabriel, who leads Chancellor Angela Merkel's junior coalition partner and who is also the country's economy minister, represent the strongest warning yet from the Social Democrats.

 

So far, resistance to a new bailout for Greece has come mainly from Merkel's Christian Democrat conservatives.

 

While some of these lawmakers in the German parliament voted against an extension of Greece's second rescue program earlier this year, no Social Democrat did.

 

"If agreement is not reached quickly, the patience of many in Europe could snap," Gabriel wrote. "We won't let German workers and their families pay for the exaggerated election promises of a partly communist government."

 

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102757651

 

Grci ne žele rešenje, tvrde iz EU:

 

Edited June 14, 2015 by vememah

[vememah]

Reuters javlja da je to bilo to i da neće biti novih pregovora do četvrtka, tj. sastanka minfinova.

 

EU Commission says Greek proposal incomplete, euro ministers to decide

 

Last-ditch talks between Greece and the institutions representing its creditors did not succeed in securing a deal on Sunday, leaving a final decision on a possible default to euro zone finance ministers, the European Commission said.

 

Greece is arguing with its international creditors - the European Central Bank, the International Monetary Fund and the European Commission - over the reforms it must implement to win new funding and avert bankruptcy.

 

"(Commission) President (Jean-Claude) Juncker made a last attempt this weekend to find, via personal representatives and in close liaison with Commission, ECB and IMF experts, a solution with Prime Minister (Alexis) Tsipras that would allow for a positive assessment in time for the Eurogroup on Thursday 18 June," the Commission said.

 

"While some progress was made, the talks did not succeed as there remains a significant gap between the plans of the Greek authorities and the joint requirements of Commission, ECB and IMF in the order of 0.5-1 percentage points of GDP, or the equivalent of up to 2 billion of permanent fiscal measures on an annual basis," the EU executive said in a statement.

 

"In addition, the Greek proposals remain incomplete. On this basis, further discussion will now have to take place in the Eurogroup," it said referring to a meeting of euro zone finance ministers on June 18 in Luxembourg.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/14/eu-greece-negotiations-idUSL5N0Z00Q820150614

 

Ciprasov zamenik Dragasakis izjavio da su pokrili ceo deficit, ali da kreditori insistiraju na kresanju penzija.

 

Greek Deputy Prime Minister Yannis Dragasakis said on Sunday that Athens was still ready to negotiate for a solution with its international lenders, even though talks in Brussels ended in failure.

 

Dragasakis said Greek government proposals had fully covered the fiscal deficit as demanded by the EU and IMF, but they still wanted pension cuts, which Athens has said it will never accept.

 

http://en.enikos.gr/economy/30566,Greece-still-ready-to-negotiate-solution-with-lenders-Deputy-PM-Dragasakis-says.html

 

 

Grčki izvori nazvali zahteve kreditora iracionalnim i okrivili MMF za neuspeh.
 

Following the 45-minute meeting, a Greek government source said the demands of its international creditors are "irrational," pinning the blame on the International Monetary Fund (IMF), whose position it said was "intransigent and tough" following demands for further pension cuts and a rise in value-added tax.

 

http://www.dw.de/greece-talks-with-eu-imf-creditors-end-with-no-deal-significant-gaps/a-18517154

Edited June 14, 2015 by vememah