hazard Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 grcki sistem kakav je bio jeste bio generator korupcije, ali ne zbog "armije zaposlenih u javnom sektoru". grcka ima oko 22% zaposlenih u javnom sektoru, oko 8% vise nego npr. nemacka i francuska, ali svedska, danska i norveska zato imaju 34%, 32% i 29%. mnogo veci problem je bila upravo partitokratija u kojoj se nijedan posao nije mogao zavrsiti bez podrske jedne od dve najvece partije. sto je jelte imalo svoju ogromnu cenu, ali koga briga, to se ionako prevaljivalo na krajnjeg kupca ili korisnika. a to se ostankom ND na vlasti nece promeniti. Je li to ceo javni sektor (ukljucujuci i sve drzavne firme) ili samo drzavna uprava? Jer npr. OECD kaze http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/gov_glance-2011-en/05/01/index.html;jsessionid=2kh4231w3i5r5.x-oecd-live-02?itemId=/content/chapter/gov_glance-2011-27-en&_csp_=6514ff186e872f0ad7b772c5f31fbf2f In most OECD member countries, employment in public corporations constitutes a minor part of the labour force. However, in certain countries (e.g. Greece and Poland), public corporations employ more workers than the general government. In the future, this trend may change as governments look to privatise some of these corporations to lower the high levels of debt that have accrued since the financial and economic crises. Dalje, od kada su podaci? Ovde pise http://greece.greekreporter.com/2014/07/21/greek-public-sector-employees-reduced-by-267-095/ da je od 2009. do 2013. broj ljudi koji radi u javnom sektoru (meni se cini da se tu govori samo o drzavnoj upravi) smanjen za vise od 250.000 ljudi (uglavnom tako sto nisu produzavani ugovori na odredjeno).
hazard Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 Da sam sebi odgovorim, na gornjem OECD linku sam nasao, Grcka 2008.: drzavna uprava 7,9%, javna preduzeca 12,8%
aram Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 to ti je tih nesto preko 20%. sam broj stvarno nije problem, ja mislim. problem je sto je tu zaposljavan kurta i murta, zato sto je clan stranke, a taj em ne zna posao, em ima ogromnu platu, em je tu postavljen tako da se nijedna stvar ne moze zavrsiti bez njega ne bi li se tako i on i stranka ugradili u semu. zato su javna preduzeca i drzavna uprava spori i neefikasni, sto onda dalje podize cenu svemu i tako... recimo, sticajem okolnosti znam coveka koji je nedavno postavljen za koordinatora obalske sluzbe za spasavanje na nekih petstotinjak kilometara obale. ustanovio je da je njegov prethodnik na tom mestu mesecno zaradjivao (plata, dnevnice za putovanja, dodaci razni...) preko trideset hiljada evra. posao je vrlo odgovoran, ali se svodi na par telefonskih razgovora nedeljno i 5-6 ozbiljnijih sastanaka godisnje, tako da je i prethodni uz to najnormalnije vodio svoj biznis, kao sto to radi i moj poznanik. njemu su dali tri hiljade mesecno i srecan je, ali se plasi da ce mu smanjiti jer mu se cini da je preplacen.
Lezilebovich Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) mislim da će da padne 1 ozbiljno razočarenje pobedom sirize kod ove i sličnih ekipa. Ovo je kao link za praćenje dešavanja na izborima : http://marks21.info/izvestaji/votesyriza2015-lajv-blog-sa-lica-mesta Edited January 25, 2015 by Lezilebovich
Budja Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 Gotovo. Vise od 10% razlike, Zlatna Zora i Potami dele trece mesto.
akibono Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 Jel mu ovo dođe nešto kao 'dobiše i grci svoga Vučića', populizam druge boje? Kako CNN pokriva nešto nemam utisak panike zbog pobede 'radikalno-levih' kako ih imenuju. No, moje bi ozbiljno pitanje za upućene bilo - ako su ovi stvarno pravi komunisti na vlasti, može li se očekivati dizanje i (oružano) organizovanje pravih desničara uz okršaje i napade... tamo je podela ČvP ozbiljnija nego ovde. Ili je svaopšti nacoinalizam grka dovoljno jak da ublaži ideološke razlike?
Anduril Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) Jel mu ovo dođe nešto kao 'dobiše i grci svoga Vučića', populizam druge boje? Kako CNN pokriva nešto nemam utisak panike zbog pobede 'radikalno-levih' kako ih imenuju. No, moje bi ozbiljno pitanje za upućene bilo - ako su ovi stvarno pravi komunisti na vlasti, može li se očekivati dizanje i (oružano) organizovanje pravih desničara uz okršaje i napade... tamo je podela ČvP ozbiljnija nego ovde. Ili je svaopšti nacoinalizam grka dovoljno jak da ublaži ideološke razlike? Siriza je nova levica i kao takva sasvim legitimna. Nista revolucionarno. Iza Ciprasa stoji tim levicarskih ekonomista tako da to nije neki Vucic stajl populizam bez sadrzine. Imaju plan, bice eksperimentisanja a kako ce na kraju da ispadne ima veliki znacaj za buducnost Evrope. Levicarski eksperimenti odavno nisu probani osim fejlova Holanda od pre 2 godine. Edited January 25, 2015 by Anduril
yolo Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 KKE je napravio vise partija u Grckoj nego DS u Srbiji. ML-KKE (Marksisticko Lenjinisticka Komunisticka Partija Grcke), onda ova Ciprasova sto se ime tesko pamti, i jos jedno 20-tak.... Wiki navodi ove: Communist Party of Greece, Communist Organization of Greece, Movement for the United in Action Left, Renewing Communist Ecological Left, Marxist–Leninist Communist Party of Greece, Communist Party of Greece (Marxist–Leninist), Organization for the Reconstruction of the Communist Party of Greece, Movement for the Reorganization of the Communist Party of Greece 1918–55, Communist Renewal, Left Anti-capitalist Group, Left Group, Left Recomposition, New Left Current, Revolutionary Communist Movement of Greece
archi Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 Inače, najjača su mi ova poređenja Srbije i Grčke. Kao - paralele i to. Nema paralele. Grčka je za Srbiju - svemir. U Srbiji se nikad nije odlučivalo na Agori. U Srbiji savetnik nikad nije bio Aristotel. Srbija nikad nije imala svog Periklea. Srbija još uvek nije izgradila Partenon. U Srbiji se odluke nisu donosile u Delfima. U Srbiji se nikad nisu slušale cice proročice, a da to nije - Vava. U Srbiji se niko nije ložio na Atenu. Srbija se ložila na Vuka. Hahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahaah... Prema tome - Grčka Rocks!
Kampokei Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 Inače, najjača su mi ova poređenja Srbije i Grčke. Kao - paralele i to. Nema paralele. Grčka je za Srbiju - svemir. U svakom smislu. Drago mi je zbog Sirize iz bar tisucu razloga, ali imam i slicno osecanje kao da je Obama izabran. Osecanje zaljenja unapred svih onih sa velikim ocekivanjima.
Eraserhead Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 Drago mi je zbog Sirize iz bar tisucu razloga... Npr? Meni na pamet pada samo jedan "samar dosadasnjoj eliti" ali se bojim da ce cena biti prevelika ako Crveni Kmeri krenu da rade po svojem.
yolo Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 Drago mi je zbog Sirize iz bar tisucu razloga, ali imam i slicno osecanje kao da je Obama izabran. Osecanje zaljenja unapred svih onih sa velikim ocekivanjima. Da li si imao taj osecaj kada je izabran ili kada si se osvestio? Tog dana kada je izabran, ja sam se imao isti oblik uzbudjenja kao kada je covek sleteo na mesec. Da se desilo nesto posle cega ce svet i covecanstvo biti bolji. I dan danas kada prodjem pored nekog prozora u predgradju San Franciska gde je dete u izlog stavilo neku zvrljotinu i crtez na kome pise "yes, we can" prodju me zmarci. Realnost jos uvek ne moze da pobedi to stanje. Nego, Grcka. Spisak obecanja pobednika: 1. Audit of the public debt and renegotiation of interest due and suspension of payments until the economy has revived and growth and employment return. 2. Demand the European Union to change the role of the European Central Bank so that it finances states and programs of public investment. 3. Raise income tax to 75% for all incomes over 500,000 euros. 4. Change the election laws to a proportional system. 5. Increase taxes on big companies to that of the European average. 6. Adoption of a tax on financial transactions and a special tax on luxury goods. 7. Prohibition of speculative financial derivatives. 8. Abolition of financial privileges for the Church and shipbuilding industry. 9. Combat the banks' secret [measures] and the flight of capital abroad. 10. Cut drastically military expenditures. 11. Raise minimum salary to the pre-cut level, 750 euros per month. 12. Use buildings of the government, banks and the Church for the homeless. 13. Open dining rooms in public schools to offer free breakfast and lunch to children. 14. Free health benefits to the unemployed, homeless and those with low salaries. 15. Subvention up to 30% of mortgage payments for poor families who cannot meet payments. 16. Increase of subsidies for the unemployed. Increase social protection for one-parent families, the aged, disabled, and families with no income. 17. Fiscal reductions for goods of primary necessity. 18. Nationalisation of banks. 19. Nationalisation of ex-public (service & utilities) companies in strategic sectors for the growth of the country (railroads, airports, mail, water). 20. Preference for renewable energy and defence of the environment. 21. Equal salaries for men and women. 22. Limitation of precarious hiring and support for contracts for indeterminate time. 23. Extension of the protection of labour and salaries of part-time workers. 24. Recovery of collective (labour) contracts. 25. Increase inspections of labour and requirements for companies making bids for public contracts. 26. Constitutional reforms to guarantee separation of church and state and protection of the right to education, health care and the environment. 27. Referendums on treaties and other accords with Europe. 28. Abolition of privileges for parliamentary deputies. Removal of special juridical protection for ministers and permission for the courts to proceed against members of the government. 29. Demilitarisation of the Coast Guard and anti-insurrectional special troops. Prohibition for police to wear masks or use fire arms during demonstrations. Change training courses for police so as to underline social themes such as immigration, drugs and social factors. 30. Guarantee human rights in immigrant detention centres. 31. Facilitate the reunion of immigrant families. 32. Depenalisation of consumption of drugs in favor of battle against drug traffic. Increase funding for drug rehab centres. 33. Regulate the right of conscientious objection in draft laws. 34. Increase funding for public health up to the average European level.(The European average is 6% of GDP; in Greece 3%.) 35. Elimination of payments by citizens for national health services. 36. Nationalisation of private hospitals. Elimination of private participation in the national health system. 37. Withdrawal of Greek troops from Afghanistan and the Balkans. No Greek soldiers beyond our own borders. 38. Abolition of military cooperation with Israel. Support for creation of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders. 39. Negotiation of a stable accord with Turkey. 40. Closure of all foreign bases in Greece and withdrawal from NATO. * * *
Rick.James Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 Ako smem jedan sovinisticki off- Grci su lenja bagra...
yolo Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 Programski tekst: "Izlaz iz krize je na levici" 1. Creation of a shield to protect society against the crisis: Not a single citizen without a guaranteed minimum income or unemployment benefit, medical care, social protection, housing, and access to all services of public utilities. Protection of and relief measures for indebted households. Price controls and price reductions, VAT reduction, and abolition of VAT on basic-need goods. 2. Disposal of the debt burden: The national debt is first and foremost a product of class relations, and is inhumane in its very essence. It is produced by the tax evasion of the wealthy, the looting of public funds, and the exorbitant procurement of military weapons and equipment. We are asking immediately for: A moratorium on debt servicing. Negotiations for debt cancellation, with provisions for the protection of social insurance funds and small savers. This will be pursued by exploiting any available means, such as audit control and suspension of payments. Regulation of the remaining debt to include provisions for economic development and employment. European regulations on the debt of European states. Radical changes to the European Central Bank's role. Prohibition of speculative banking products. A pan-European tax on wealth, financial transactions, and profits. 3. Income redistribution, taxation of wealth, and elimination of unnecessary expenses: Reorganization and consolidation of tax collection mechanisms. Taxation of fortunes over 1-million euros and large-scale revenues. Gradual increase, up to 45%, of the tax on the distributed profits of corporations (SA). Taxation of financial transactions. Special taxation on consumption of luxury goods. Removal of tax exemptions for ship owners and the Greek Orthodox Church. Lifting of confidentiality for banking and merchant transactions, and pursuit of those who evade taxes and social insurance contributions. Banning of transactions carried out through offshore companies. Pursuit of new financial resources through efficient absorption of European funds, through claims on the payment of German World War II reparations and occupation loan, and finally via steep reductions in military expenses. 4. Productive social and environmental reconstruction: Nationalization/socialization of banks, and their integration into a public banking system under social and workers’ control, in order to serve developmental purposes. The scandalous recapitalization of the banks must stop immediately. Nationalization of all public enterprises of strategic importance that have been privatized so far. Administration of public enterprises based on transparency, social control, and democratic planning. Support for the provision of Public Goods. Protection and consolidation of co-operatives and SMEs in the social sector. Ecological transformation in development of energy production, manufacturing, tourism, and agriculture. These reforms will prioritize nutritional abundance and fulfillment of social needs. Development of scientific research and productive specialization. 5. Stable employment with decent wages and social insurance: The constant degradation of labour rights, coupled with embarrassing wage levels, does not attract investment, development, or employment. Instead, we are calling for: Well-paid, well-regulated, and insured employment. Immediate reconstitution of the minimum wage, and reconstitution of real wages within three years. Immediate reconstitution of collective labour agreements. Instigation of powerful control mechanisms that will protect employment. Systematic opposition of lay-offs and the deregulation of labour relations. 6. Deepening Democracy: democratic political and social rights for all: There is a democratic deficit in the country. Greece is gradually being transformed into an authoritarian police state. We are calling for: The restoration of popular sovereignty and an upgrade of parliamentary power within the political system:Creation of a proportional electoral system Separation of powers Revocation of ministerial immunity Abolishment of economic privileges for MPs Real decentralization to create local government with sound resources and expanded jurisdiction. The introduction of direct democracy and institutions of self-management under workers’ and social control at all levels. Measures against political and economic corruption. The solidification of democratic, political, and trade union rights. The enhancement of women's and youths’ rights in the family, in employment, and in public administration. Immigration reforms:Speeding up the asylum process Abolition of Dublin II regulations and granting of travel papers to immigrants Social inclusion of immigrants and equal rights protection Democratic reforms to public administration with the active participation of civil servants. The demilitarization and democratization of the Police and the Coast Guard. Disbandment of special forces. 7. Restoration of a strong welfare state: Anti-insurance laws, the shutdown of social services, and the steep fall in social expenditures under the Memorandum have turned Greece into a country where social injustice reigns. We are in need of: An immediate rescue of the pension system, to include tripartite financing and the gradual consolidation of separate pension fund portfolios into one public, universal system of social insurance. A raise in unemployment benefits until the substitution rate reaches 80% of the wage. No unemployed person is to be left without unemployment benefits. The introduction of a guaranteed minimum income. A unified system of comprehensive social protection covering the vulnerable social strata. 8. Health is a Public Good and a social right: Health care is to be provided for free and will be financed through a Public Health System. Immediate measures include: Support and upgrades for hospitals. Upgrade of health infrastructures of the Social Insurance Institute (IKA). Development of an integrated system of first-level medical care. Covering the needs of medical treatment in both personnel and equipment, in part by stopping lay-offs. Open and cost-free access to medical treatment for all residents in the country. Free pharmaceutical treatment and medical examinations for low-income pensioners, the unemployed, students, and those suffering from chronic diseases. 9. Protection of public education, research, culture, and sports from the Memorandum's policies: With regards to education, we are calling for: Consolidation of universal, public, and free education, including coverage of its urgent needs in infrastructure and personnel at all three levels. Compulsory 14-year unified education. Revocation of the Diamantopoulou Law. Assurance of self-government for Universities. Preservation of the academic and public character of Universities. 10. An independent foreign policy committed to the promotion of peace: The capitulation of our foreign policy to the desires of the U.S. and the powerful states of the European Union endangers the country's independence, peace, and security. We propose: A multi-dimensional and peace-seeking foreign policy. Disengagement from NATO and closure of foreign military bases on Greek soil. Termination of military cooperation with Israel. Aiding the Cypriot people in the reunification of the island. Furthermore, on the basis of international law and the principle of peaceful conflict resolution, we will pursue improvements in Greek-Turkish relations, a solution to the problem of FYROM's official name, and the specification of Greece's Exclusive Economic Zone. The incumbent economic and social system has failed and we must overthrow it! The economic crisis that is rocking global capitalism has shattered the illusions. More and more, people understand that capitalist speculation is an inhuman organizational principle for modern society. It is also widely acknowledged that the private banks function only for the benefit of the bankers, harming the rest of the people. Big business and bankers absorb billions of euros from health care, education, and pensions. An exit from the crisis requires bold measures that will prevent those who created the crisis from continuing their destructive work. We are endorsing a new model for the production and distribution of wealth, one that will include society in its totality. In this respect, the large capitalist property is to be made public and managed democratically along social and ecological criteria. Our strategic aim is socialism with democracy, a system in which all will be entitled to participate in the decision-making process. We are changing the future; we are pushing them into the past! We can prevail by forging unity and creating a new coalition for power with the Left as a cornerstone. Our strength in this endeavour is the alliance of the People: the inspiration, the creative effort, and the struggle of the working people. With these, we will shape the lives and the future of a self-governed people. Now the vote is in the hands of the People! Now the People have the power! In this new election, the Greek people can and must vote against the regime of the Memoranda and the Troika, thus turning over a new page of hope and optimism for the future. For Greece and for Europe, the solution is with the Left!
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