Politika u UK

[MancMellow]

 

A Guardian/ICM poll has produced a surprise Conservative lead of six points, taking David Cameron’s party to 39% with Labour on 33%.

While most recent polls show the race is tied or that Labour is in a slight lead, the telephone poll conducted between Friday and Sunday reports that theConservatives have gained three points while Labour is down by two points in the last month.

ICM’s figures say that support for the Liberal Democrats is unchanged, on 8%. Ukip drops back two points to 7%, which leaves them tied for fourth place with the Green party, who are also on 7%, recovering by three points after having fallen to just 4% in March.

[Dr Arslanagić]

Не треба се плашити Вучића Џонсона, за величине попут Милибанда и Клега и Камерон је довољан.

[Linus]

pa te uslove koje ti navodis ne bi ni predsednik BNPa mogao da zadovolji. naprosto, pojavni oblik populistickog mudrosera i narcisa uslovljen je drustveno-istorijskim okolnostima.

 

to sto boris ima malo vise slifa koji je stekao vaspitanjem/obrazovanjem je ovde nebitno, jer mi ne pricamo o tome da li bi se s njim druzili vec da li bi mu dali da upravlja drzavom. da je vucic isao u takve skole, ne bi se drao na ljude i histerisao javno. pritom boris jos ima harizmaticne crte, koje ga cine jos opasnijim jer je u stanju da na taj nacin nabaci dobar broj glasova.

Pojavni oblik bilo kog politicara uslovljen je drustveno-istorijskim okolnostima. To je tautologija, nije informativni iskaz. Sto se tice populizma, to se prebacivalo i Gladstoneu i Dizraeliju, a po narcisoidnosti tesko da bi bilo ko u istoriji mogao da parira Churchillu, pa opet to nije ono po cemu su zapamceni u istoriji. 

 

I dalje ne razumem sta uopste moze biti problem ako covek na jednoj strani nije fashista ili komunista (jer za to nema "drustveno-istorijskih okolnosti"), na drugoj ima vaspitanje/obrazovanje  - pa sigurno je da bih se sa takvim covekom i druzio i dao mu da upravlja drzavom. Ili je to ipak samo ideologija u pitanju? 

 

Sto nas vraca na proslo pitanje: kakva je tacno razlika izmedju nacionalizma SNP-a i nacionalizma UKIP-a, osim sto, da te parafraziram, a to se savrseno preslikava na ovaj slucaj, Sturgeonova ima "malo vise slifa" od engleskog sheshelja? Zasto Sturgeonova nije "utoliko opasnija" posto je harizmaticnija?

[Budja]

 

Sto nas vraca na proslo pitanje: kakva je tacno razlika izmedju nacionalizma SNP-a i nacionalizma UKIP-a, osim sto, da te parafraziram, a to se savrseno preslikava na ovaj slucaj, Sturgeonova ima "malo vise slifa" od engleskog sheshelja? Zasto Sturgeonova nije "utoliko opasnija" posto je harizmaticnija?

 

Recimo:

SNP Praise Soaring Scottish Immigration Levels

 

 

I sasvim dovoljno.

[hazard]

Dalje, Parti Quebecois daleko od toga da je odmah "marginalozovana". Čak tri godine posle referenduma glat su dobili izbore sa neznatno manje glasova nego na prethodnim.

 

 

Da se nadovežem: posle 2 neuspela referenduma u poslednjih 35 godina PQ je i dalje jedna od 2 glavne stranke u Kvebeku i jedina koja, pored federalističkih Liberala, osvaja vlast na provincijskom nivou. A na federalnom nivou je BQ doživeo potop tek 15 godina nakon referenduma, onog drugog, do tada je i dalje bio glavna sila u Kvebeku na federalnim izborima.

 

Mislim da je BraveMargot malo pobrkala moje pisanje o kanadskim paralelama - ja sam predviđao tihu koaliciju SNP i Konzervativaca poput slične takve koalicije BQ i Konzervativaca u Kanadi.

[MancMellow]

^^Ma razlika je solidna, naravno. Mislim, ja prvi ne ljubim SNP, ali prosto igranje na nacionalnu kartu nije dovoljna sličnost da bi se poredili. Iako onako čisto "teoretski" ne bih umeo da se odredim šta mi je manje po volji nacionalna levica ili nacionalna desnica, treba priznati da je SNP u onom delu u kojem je "levo" (a on je popriličan - taj deo) ipak jedna moderna evropska partija levice. Sami politički koreni Salmonda su, ono, prilično levičarski. Ponoviću, mora se imati u vidu da je igranje na kartu nezavisnosti zapravo za dobar deo populacije Škotske, a tako se često i "prodaje" od strane SNP način da se raskrsti sa Vestminsterskim žilavim staleškim sistemom i njegovim recidivima. Ali bez obzira na to veliki deo njihove priče mi zvuči kao demagogija. Suštinski i UKIP i SNP, iako ih nikako ne bih izjednačavao, su pokazatelji jednog društva (i države) koje je raskrstilo sa kolonijalnim nasleđem - ali ne baš sasvim, koje se opredelilo za EU - ali ne baš sasvim, koje je otvoreno za promene, ali ne baš sasvim, i još određeni broj tih "ne baš sasvim" i generalno koje je nekako mislilo da dok je bog hodao po zemlji tokom 2,5 Blerova mandata - mislilo da je neke dileme konačno razrešilo, a onda se (delom i Blerovom krivicom, naravno) dolaskom krize ispostavilo da baš i nije.  

 

No, velika je šteta što je Bler napravio toliko gluposti, pošto je on po širini razmišljanja prosto 1 liga iznad bilo koga na ovim izborima

 

 

 

 

 I had to laugh when I heard the SNP Leader challenge Ed Miliband over whether he voted for Tory public spending cuts. The reality is that had Scotland voted to exit the UK it would now be in economic trauma, trying to negotiate its currency against a backdrop of the sliding global devaluation of oil related economies. Never mind Tory cuts, they would be dwarfed by the SNP cuts necessary to keep the Scottish economy afloat in the radically altered market conditions we now face.

But the point is: despite the rational evisceration of the policy that defines the SNP, support for them – at least according to the polls – is even stronger than at the time of the referendum.

Nationalism is a powerful sentiment. Let that genie out of the bottle and it is a Herculean task to put it back. Reason alone struggles.

The referendum on Europe carries with it the same risk. For that reason, should the Conservatives win, one other thing will be certain. The PM will be spending more energy, will have more sleepless nights about it, be more focused on it than literally any other single issue. He knows the vastness of the decision. He knows the penalty of failure. He knows exit will define his legacy. And, following the Scottish referendum, he knows the perilous fragility of public support for the sensible choice.

...

There is a beguiling notion that upon Britain voting to leave, the rest of Europe would be in an amenable and friendly frame of mind in the consequent negotiation. They would have, it is said, a shared interest, in making it as amicable as possible.

Excuse me, but get real. As a result of our decision every other European Leader would be faced with big choices about the terms of Britain’s relationship with Europe now as an outsider. This they would regard as a wholly unnecessary diversion from the critical domestic challenge of recovering their own economies. They will believe that Britain wants to have the benefits of the single market without the responsibilities. They will be determined to prevent that. Norway and Switzerland both are obliged, as the price of their access to Europe’s market, to accede to a series of European rules even though they cannot influence their drafting. The rest of Europe will be vigorous in ensuring Britain gets no special treatment. This will be a horrible process. Don't be in any doubt about that.

I am aghast at some of the arguments used as to why having such a vote is ‘a great idea for democracy’. Apparently we should have a referendum because its 40 years since we last had a vote. That is seriously an argument for doing something of this magnitude and risk? A sort of ‘keeping us on our toes’ thing? So should we do the same for NATO? Or have periodic referendums not just in Scotland but all over the UK just to check popular feeling? We should have a referendum if we seriously believe that getting out of Europe is a national priority if our terms aren't met. If we don't, then it is a completely unacceptable gamble with our future.

...

However the case for Britain staying in Europe is much more than about business. It is also crucially about Britain’s role as a global player. In the 20th Century even as Britain declined in relative importance to the USA as a global power, we were able to maintain a position as one of the world’s leading nations. We kept our alliance with America strong. We entered the European Union partly to ensure our position. These are the two well-founded pillars of British foreign policy. And they're mutually reinforcing.

Through these alliances we exercise a power greater than our relative size would otherwise bring us. As one of the world’s traditional powers, this is a sensible strategy for us to pursue in order to be able to hold our position.

...

For Europe, the crisis of the single currency has obscured one central new reality: that, despite all the travails of recent years, the objective case for Europe has actually never been stronger precisely for these geo-political reasons. Europe and the USA are trying to negotiate a new trade partnership. Only Europe together could achieve such a huge undertaking with such significance for European business including its ability to affect commerce with China and India.

...

Do we really think this is the time in which to put into play our very membership of the European Union, the largest commercial market and most developed political union in the world? And the one on our doorstep? So that instead of playing a leading role in resolving these common challenges, we would decide to engage in the juddering impact of a negotiation which would weaken all these alliances and put us out of the leadership game?

Remember the relief we felt when Scotland voted no. Why was that? Because towards the end, having paid only intermittent attention to the enormity of the decision, we awoke to it and realised – I think with shock – how close we had come to relegating ourselves from the Premier League of nations. Now think if the vote had gone the other way. It doesn't bear thinking of. It would be exactly the same with a vote on Europe. We're frankly not much focused on it now. But that is the same semi-conscious torpor that almost led us to disaster in keeping the UK together. And if we think that having the vote will resolve the issue, think again about Scotland now.

This alliance with Europe was sought half a century ago by the then leaders of our country because they knew that without it, Britain could not maintain its influence and its power. And of course it involves ceding or pooling some sovereignty. But it does so in order to gain sovereign power over decisions that in the reality of 21st Century geo-politics we will only exercise in concert with others.

...

The anti-Europe faction in British politics argues that Britain can ‘take back’ its freedom by leaving the EU. But the whole point of an alliance is that you enlarge your freedom to influence and to shape events through the instrument of partnership. Today, with globalisation ever blurring national boundaries and forcing integration on the world, such alliances are becoming the norm for every region of the world. Europe as an idea may have been born out of the wreckage of war; but today its rationale is not peace but power and it grows ever stronger.

None of this invalidates the case for reform in Europe. And here is the tragedy of Britain framing this debate about reform purely in terms of Britain’s relationship with Europe and not Europe’s relationship with its own structures and rules. Britain has many allies in this quest for change. The French-German motor of Europe remains powerful but the past years of the financial crisis have put it under strain as a vehicle for European progress and in any event both countries and the other key European players want and need a strong Britain to balance Europe. The movement for change in Europe would benefit hugely from British input and leadership. Nationalist forces in Europe – see the National Front in France – are surging everywhere.

...

National pride is a great thing. Nationalism as a political cause, in the hands of parties like UKIP, is almost always ugly and can never, despite being wrapped in the garb of high-sounding phrases, disguise its mean spirit.

This is why this debate over Europe matters more than we know. Because it says something very profound about us a country.

This becomes very plain when you speak to people outside of Britain about whether Britain should leave Europe. Wherever you go – USA, China India, by the way all the countries the Euro fantasists say would be so keen to have independent relations with us – they approach the question with a certain amount of incredulity. The most common response is: why would you do that? They think we won't of course. And probably in the end that is right.

But it is interesting to probe the reason for their incredulity. It is not simply about the politics or the economics. It is that Britain giving up on Europe contradicts their sense of what Britain is about as a country.

It is the same reason I am so passionate about this issue. It isn't just about money or power. It is about character. It is about who we are and where we're going as a nation.

A decision to exit Europe would say a lot about us and none of it good:

That an adventurous country has become a timid one

That one with global ambitions has opted to be a parochial bystander

That a country known for its openness to the world shuts the open door nearest to it

That a nation which has built its history on confidence towards others defines itself by resentment to others

 

http://www.tonyblairoffice.org/news/entry/tony-blair-europe-a-very-good-reason-to-vote-labour/

 

Naravno, propaganda, pa i određena vrsta nacionalizma (patriotizma definitivno) progovara iz ovog govora, ali iako se naravno uvek ima šta prigovoriti - ovo je nešto drugo od onoga što slušamo u kampanji. 

Edited April 13, 2015 by MancMellow

[MancMellow]

Da se nadovežem: posle 2 neuspela referenduma u poslednjih 35 godina PQ je i dalje jedna od 2 glavne stranke u Kvebeku i jedina koja, pored federalističkih Liberala, osvaja vlast na provincijskom nivou. A na federalnom nivou je BQ doživeo potop tek 15 godina nakon referenduma, onog drugog, do tada je i dalje bio glavna sila u Kvebeku na federalnim izborima.

 

Mislim da je BraveMargot malo pobrkala moje pisanje o kanadskim paralelama - ja sam predviđao tihu koaliciju SNP i Konzervativaca poput slične takve koalicije BQ i Konzervativaca u Kanadi.

 

Pa pazi, u samom Holyroodu su torijevci glasali zaboravio sam tačan broj, ali između 300 i 400 puta za zakonske predloge SNP-ija. Ako ništa to je bar dokaz da baš i nisu apsolutno gadljivi jedni na druge. 

Edited April 13, 2015 by MancMellow

[Budja]

^^Ma razlika je solidna, naravno. Mislim, ja prvi ne ljubim SNP, ali prosto igranje na nacionalnu kartu nije dovoljna sličnost da bi se poredili. Iako onako čisto "teoretski" ne bih umeo da se odredim šta mi je manje po volji nacionalna levica ili nacionalna desnica, treba priznati da je SNP u onom delu u kojem je "levo" (a on je popriličan - taj deo) ipak jedna moderna evropska partija levice. Sami politički koreni Salmonda su, ono, prilično levičarski. Ponoviću, mora se imati u vidu da je igranje na kartu nezavisnosti zapravo za dobar deo populacije Škotske, a tako se često i "prodaje" od strane SNP način da se raskrsti sa Vestminsterskim žilavim staleškim sistemom i njegovim recidivima. Ali bez obzira na to veliki deo njihove priče mi zvuči kao demagogija. Suštinski i UKIP i SNP, iako ih nikako ne bih izjednačavao, su pokazatelji jednog društva (i države) koje je raskrstilo sa kolonijalnim nasleđem - ali ne baš sasvim, koje se opredelilo za EU - ali ne baš sasvim, koje je otvoreno za promene, ali ne baš sasvim, i još određeni broj tih "ne baš sasvim" i generalno koje je nekako mislilo da dok je bog hodao po zemlji tokom 2,5 Blerova mandata - mislilo da je neke dileme konačno razrešilo, a onda se (delom i Blerovom krivicom, naravno) dolaskom krize ispostavilo da baš i nije.  

 

No, velika je šteta što je Bler napravio toliko gluposti, pošto je on po širini razmišljanja prosto 1 liga iznad bilo koga na ovim izborima

 

 

 

 

http://www.tonyblairoffice.org/news/entry/tony-blair-europe-a-very-good-reason-to-vote-labour/

 

Naravno, propaganda, pa i određena vrsta nacionalizma (patriotizma definitivno) progovara iz ovog govora, ali iako se naravno uvek ima šta prigovoriti - ovo je nešto drugo od onoga što slušamo u kampanji. 

 

Ovaj, citah malo dijagonalno ali kako se ovaj evropski Blerov govor tacno razlikuje od onoga sto pricaju LibDems i deo laburista proteklih deset godina?

I da li bi to isto pircao da je na vlasti, kao neko ko zna kako da se poigrava javnim mnjenjem, apropo evropskog ustava kada su se lomila koplja?

 

Prosto, ako i drugde u Evropi, EU se vidi kao otudjena birokratska unaccountable tvorevina, sto dobrim delom i jeste.

 

 

Dakle, nije UKIP nuzno samo britanski vec evropski fenomen, a slicno vazi i za SNP.

[MancMellow]

Ovaj, citah malo dijagonalno ali kako se ovaj evropski Blerov govor tacno razlikuje od onoga sto pricaju LibDems i deo laburista proteklih deset godina?

I da li bi to isto pircao da je na vlasti, kao neko ko zna kako da se poigrava javnim mnjenjem, apropo evropskog ustava kada su se lomila koplja?

 

Prosto, ako i drugde u Evropi, EU se vidi kao otudjena birokratska unaccountable tvorevina, sto dobrim delom i jeste.

 

 

Dakle, nije UKIP nuzno samo britanski vec evropski fenomen, a slicno vazi i za SNP.

 

O apsolutno su evropski fenomeni, i to je ono što, mene bar, zabrinjava, Više UKIP nego SNP, ali i oni. 

 

Govor se po željenom efektu ne razlikuje, ali po sadržaju i argumentaciji...different class. 

 

Ovo o EU kao otuđenoj, birokratskoj i unaccountable tvorevini - u tekstu i piše da treba neke stvari menjati, pa nije toliko šašav da ostavi taj prostor nebranjen. Ali glavno je (u govoru) da UK to treba da radi entuzijatično, zajedno sa drugima i bez pretnji stavljanja sopstvenog spolovila na panjBrexitom.

Edited April 13, 2015 by MancMellow

[Linus]

Recimo:

SNP Praise Soaring Scottish Immigration Levels

 

 

I sasvim dovoljno.

Ti citas - i verujes - ono sto pise na tom sajtu?? 

[Linus]

O apsolutno su evropski fenomeni, i to je ono što, mene bar, zabrinjava, Više UKIP nego SNP, ali i oni. 

 

Govor se po željenom efektu ne razlikuje, ali po sadržaju i argumentaciji...different class. 

 

Ovo o EU kao otuđenoj, birokratskoj i unaccountable tvorevini - u tekstu i piše da treba neke stvari menjati, pa nije toliko šašav da ostavi taj prostor nebranjen. Ali glavno je (u govoru) da UK to treba da radi entuzijatično, zajedno sa drugima i bez pretnji stavljanja sopstvenog spolovila na panjBrexitom.

Ovo je sve potpuno tacno. 

[adam]

ja bih voleo da imam prilike da glasam za SNP umesto ovih mojih lokalnih mandrila. mnogi u skotskoj glasaju za njih a da ih boli kita za nacionalizam. dosta SNP glasaca je, recimo, na referendumu glasalo protiv nezavisnosti - sto je iz naseg ugla mozda malo uvrnuto ali u okviru uk politike sasvim legitimno. snp je partija koja ostvari ono sto obeca a ako imaju prepreke, dugorocno rade na tome, ne odustaju od onog sto su naumili. i bas zato im se veruje.

 

evo par primera - nhs (drzavni zdravstveni sistem) u skotskoj nema privatizovane elemente docim juzno od granice privatizuju mic po mic sto za posledicu ima da se poreske pare slivaju u profit tih privatnika umesto u zdravstvo. lista socijalnih lekova i usluga u skotskoj je bitno bogatija od one u engleskoj, nega starih i nemocnih bolja i jeftinija, nema nadoknade za recepte (svugde drugde se placa) bolnicki parking je besplatan a juzno od granice nas kolju privatne firme. skolstvo im je i jeftinije i kvalitetnije, fakultetsko obrazovanje je besplatno a na jugu evo sad pred izbore obecavaju da ce staviti granicu na 6000 godisnje. ima toga jos oho-ho.... 

 

sve su ovo stvari koje su laburisti a delimicno i lib-demi redovno obecavali a nikad ostvarili. da su laburisti samo deo ovog napravili (a imali su sanse onoliko) sad se ne bi pitali da li ce ih uopste biti u skotskoj posle ovih izbora. 

 

travestija je uopste staviti snp i ukip u istu recenicu, kakvo pusto poredjenje. grenmaders and frogs...

[BraveMargot]

da dodam na ovo sto je adam gore napisao o zdravstvenoj nezi, tu su jos i besplatni ocni pregledi i obilje zubara koji rade u okviru NHSa (dok sam zivela u engleskoj 5 godina nisam imala NHS zubara, tamo su oni retki i velike su liste cekanja).

 

meni je jako milo sto sam se preselila u skotsku i glasacu za SNP, i to najvise zbog toga sto se protivim merama ekonomske stednje koje pogadjaju radne ljude, sirotinju i penzionere, a najmanje zbog nekakvih prica o nezavisnosti ili referendumu, koje mislim da ce opet isplivati jedino ako pobede torijevci i raspisu referendum o izlasku iz eu. 

 

evo u ovom clanku iz gardijana se vidi ko su kandidati SNPa na izborima (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/07/who-are-snp-election-candidates-profiles), pa koga ne mrzi nek uporedi to s kandidatima ukipa i vidi koji je nivo preklapanja u tome za sta se ovi ljudi zalazu.

 

ali ovde to nije bitno, nije bitno ni sto je snp pro-EU, oni su isti kao ukip, boris je pametan i sarmantan i kao stvoren za premijera, a kameron je odredjivao datum referenduma jer je znao sta ce da se desi pa je tako planirao da sjebe laburiste.

 

ono sto se ovde pise podseca me na onu scenu iz spitting image-a kad piter bota drzi govor o tome kako stvari stoje, pa kaze dragi moji juznoafrikanci, sad cu vam reci sustu istinu o tome kako stvari stoje. pod jedan, banane su torbari, pod dva, motorizovana vozila idu na mocu, pod tri, lososi zive na drvecu i hrane se olovkama, a pod cetiri, reforme u juznoj africi su u toku.

Edited April 14, 2015 by BraveMargot

[Linus]

... fakultetsko obrazovanje je besplatno ...

To postoji podjednako kao vile, vilenjaci, perpetuum mobile ili kvadratura kruga. 

 

Ali ideologija uvek naslika kuce od cokolade i prozore od marmelade...

[Linus]

meni je jako milo sto sam se preselila u skotsku i glasacu za SNP, i to najvise zbog toga sto se protivim merama ekonomske stednje koje pogadjaju radne ljude, sirotinju i penzionere, a najmanje zbog nekakvih prica o nezavisnosti ili referendumu, koje mislim da ce opet isplivati jedino ako pobede torijevci i raspisu referendum o izlasku iz eu. 

Sama si pomenula da su u vezi referenduma izvukli pricu o bici kod Banokberna - sto je potpuno ekvivalentno Milosevicevom koriscenju 600 godina kosovskog boja - i drugim epskim nacionalistickim budalastinama. Niko ne spori tvoje pravo da glasas za kog hoces, ali nemoj da svoje licne ideoloske preference predstavljas kao univerzalne, a one koji imaju drugacije preference i drugacije vrednosti kao "opasne", jer to podrazumeva opstu negativnu ocenu, opasan je zemljotres ili tornado, a ne politicki neistomisljenik.