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Ratovati ili se predati?


Krošek
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Ovaj topik nije toliko vezan za tekuća dešavanja, već služi za samo jednu stvar: diskusiju o ukrajinskom izboru između borbe i predaje (postovi moraju iznositi argumente za jednu ili drugu tezu, i ako niste zainteresovani za manje-više dihotomni pristup ovom pitanju, verovatno je najbolje da preskočite ovu diskusiju). Ovde se pored pravila foruma primenjuje i kućni red potforuma "Politika - Svet" (vidi naročito pravilo 5.2), a moderisanje u svemu prati uobičajeni obrazac – u vezi s tim, pročitajte ovaj post, a proučite malo i istoriju objava moderatora (kako se iste ne bi ponavljale). 

 

Tema o događajima i kretanjima u regionu i oko regiona u kontekstu ovog rata nalazi se na potforumu Politika.

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Posted (edited)

A među odgovorima na taj tvit:

 

FT_rpnqXwAEhXdl?format=jpg&name=large

 

 

War sucks kad nisi general.

Edited by vememah
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Ukrajinci koji hoce kuci

https://t.me/romanov_92/16675?

Ima tu negde jos bar tri snimka dnrovaca koji se bune. 

 

Nepotvdjeno se u cugajevu carkaju ukrajinci koji nece da se bore i oni koji hoce. To je nov nivo, ako je istina. 

Sto bi reklo mozda je primirje blizu. 

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Military briefing: Russia’s barrage hits Ukrainian morale in the Donbas | Financial Times (ft.com)

 

Even so, Ukraine’s rhetorical step-down is striking compared with the bullishness it briefly enjoyed in April after its troops all but routed Russian forces around the capital and forced them to retreat close to the border. A Ukrainian soldier opens fire as Russia’s barrage intensifies © Gleb Garanich/Reuters Shortly after visiting the frontlines, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, Ukraine’s president, told the Financial Times by video link this week: “Victory must be achieved on the battlefield.” But he added: “We are inferior in terms of equipment . . . we are not capable of advancing . . .[and] we are going to suffer more losses.” The central problem for Ukrainians fighting in the Donbas is a mismatch of artillery capabilities. As some Russian guns have greater range, its ground forces can sit back from the fight.

 

“There is not a problem of morale for regulars from the armed forces … they are holding up and executing orders, but they want to kill the enemy and not sit in position as cannon fodder,” Oleksandr V Danylyuk, head of the Kyiv-based Centre for Defence Reforms, a think-tank, said. “We don’t have the range and amount of artillery,” Danylyuk added. “We fire once. They fire back 40 times. They retaliate to each of our strikes at least 20 times.” Ukraine’s casualties are mounting. Oleksii Reznikov, the country’s defence minister, said on Thursday that every day it suffered “up to 100 of our soldiers killed and up to 500 wounded . . . the Kremlin continues to press by sheer mass”. Presidential adviser Mykhailo Podolyak has told the BBC as many as 200 soldiers are killed daily. Morale is particularly low among territorial defence fighters who lack the battle experience of regular troops. A draft bill sent to Ukraine’s parliament on May 5 that would have given officers greater leeway to punish rebellious soldiers was considered and rejected under two weeks later. Russia’s intelligence services have pressed home the advantage. According to Ukrainian intelligence, servicemen are being sent SMS messages that threaten harm to themselves and their families, and that Sievierodonetsk will become another Mariupol, the Ukrainian port effectively razed by Russian artillery.

 

Multiple videos posted on social media, which may be part of Russia’s propaganda effort, also depict Ukrainian soldiers complaining about poor conditions, lack of food and need for rest. In one, a captured scout says: “Food rarely came up at all. The wounded were not evacuated. After a while, many guys laid down their arms.” In another, the leader of a platoon says: “Morale is so low that no one can do it any more. Everyone is exhausted . . . We have no equipment, nothing to fight with except AK-47s.” “The videos are hard to impossible to verify, but they are not unbelievable,” said Samuel Cranny-Evans, a military analyst at the Royal United Services Institute, a think-tank in London. “Like the foreign volunteers who went to the front, Ukraine’s territorial defence volunteers have discovered that high-intensity war is hard, and even harder if there is no support.”

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  • 1 month later...
14 hours ago, Meazza said:

Ne dao bog nikome.

Da me ne razumes pogresno :): potpisujem kada su rat i prateca gvozdurija u pitanju ovo 'ne dao bog nikome' pa i uz rizik da me se proglasi za kandidata za mis sveta, ono 'da vlada mir, da se svi vole i ljube...'

Ali nikako da razumem nacelno pacifisticki, antiratni stav sa, recimo, ovim clankom gore, ili: a KO ce da brani Ukrajinu, sedi u blatu, ceka da mu Rusi sruce na glavu sta vec srucuju?

ХИМАРСИ?

Ili kako se vec zovu i cega sve ima ili nema?

Fukara?

OK.

Ali, sta cemo ako i kada fukara sutra, posle pobede, dodje i bi da se, samo primera radi, naseli na Dedinje?

Ili, kada probranitm iz njenih redova, a takvih uvek ima, znas vec na sta mislim, uostalom nagledali smo se toga, krenu da kapitalizuju stradanje (tudje naravno), krenu da se bave бранитељством, првоборче?

Sta cemo tada?

Da udarimo u пешчаниковање?

I achtung, achtung: ovde se ne radi o pravu ili 'pravu' na (ne)nosenje maski: u igri je nesto poprilicno vece - zemlju im je napao, izvrsio agresiju, cistu k'o suza neprijatelj koji preti da je anulira, anihilira?

 

Najjadnije je potezanje evropskog suda za ljudska prava: sta se ocekuje od njega?

Da presudi mozda hitno i neodlozno povlacenje Rusa, jer, eto - ljudska prava...

 

Ili, da spustim pricu na prakticnijitm nivo: sta se, kakva zrtva ili kakvo odricanje u korist Ukrajine ocekuje od recimo jednog prosecnog Nemca kada se u materijalimatm poput ovog od njega ocekuje empatija za nekoga ko je, sta ja znam - eskivirao?

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Postavio si nekoliko pitanja, ako me pitas sta je u glavi ljudi koji se odluce na bezanje iz zemlje zahvacene ratom, ja to ne znam ali mogu da pretpostavim da je glavni motivator strah. Njihova logika moze biti ovakva "ako moja drzava nestane mogu da izgubim mnogo; ako izgubim zivot gubim sve". Ili jednostavno prost, obican, banalan zivotinjski strah od bola, povredjivanja i smrti. Za mene je diskusija o tome "s one strane dobra i zla" i ne mogu nista pametno o tome da kazem.

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1 hour ago, namenski said:

Ali nikako da razumem nacelno pacifisticki, antiratni stav sa, recimo, ovim clankom gore, ili: a KO ce da brani Ukrajinu, sedi u blatu, ceka da mu Rusi sruce na glavu sta vec srucuju?

 

 

Zašto bi uopšte branio? Da bi imao čast da se izbori za ukrajinskog Vučića/Vulina umesto ruskog Vučića/Vulina? Na njihovom mestu bih se takođe spakovao davnih dana i ćao đaci

Edited by Time Crisis
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  • 4 weeks later...
1 hour ago, x500 said:

 

Ukraijina i inflacija prema DW clanku.

 

The World Bank has predicted that 55% of Ukrainians will be living in poverty by the end of 2023, compared with 2.5% before the conflict.

 

Je l to posledica ruske agresije ili ukrajinskog otpora?:fantom: 

 

I cek zar oni nisu I pre rata bili teska sirotinja koju Rusi pokusavaju sad osloboditi? 

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7 minutes ago, dillinger said:

 

Je l to posledica ruske agresije ili ukrajinskog otpora?:fantom: 

 

I cek zar oni nisu I pre rata bili teska sirotinja koju Rusi pokusavaju sad osloboditi? 

Procitaj clanak u linku.

 

Pre rata je bilo 2.5% siromasnih. 

Povod je Ruski napad na Ukrajinu, a uzrok ogromna korupcija u Ukrajinskoj drzavi. Dobijaju milijarde od US i EU, ali trosenje izgleda nije namensko.

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Šta bi tačno bilo namensko trošenje dok traje rat, i kako bi se to uopšte odrazilo na siromaštvo?

 

Bespredmetne su sve statistike ovog tipa u vanrednom stanju.

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