Ukrajina - naslage istorijskih kontroverzi

[Lord Protector]

Ono što bi na ovim stranicama trebalo da se razjasni je to da li su zločini u sovjetsko doba, pa tako i u Ukrajini, iskjučivo ruski zločini ili tu ima još potpisa?

 

Najbolja stvar za tako nešto je da se pogleda nacionalna struktura NKVD-a u Ukrajini ( i kojekude po SSSR-u), posebno rukovodećeg kadra za vreme najveće represije. Družina je poprilično šarenolika, Rusa nema puno, koliko drugih ima procenite sami, tako da o ruskom genocidu nema govora. 

 

sa sajta memorijala, istraživanje rukovodeće strukture NKVD-a u periodu 34-41:

 

podaci za Ukrajinu:

 

http://www.memo.ru/history/NKVD/kto/index.htm

 

koga zanima ceo SSSR

 

Н.В.Петров, К.В.Скоркин

 

КТО РУКОВОДИЛ НКВД 
1934–1941

СПРАВОЧНИК

 

 

 

http://www.memo.ru/history/NKVD/kto/index.htm

 

kad kliknete na link dželata, a ovde su svi dželati, otvoriće vam se kratka biografija. Ono što je mene zaprepastilo je obrazovna struktura, tj nedostatak kvalifikacija. Uglavnom kursisti, zanatlije, trgovci, seljaci. Kada su beli uništeni ostala je ogromna kadrovska rupa koja je popunjavana sa konca i konopca.

Edited March 7, 2014 by slow

[Lord Protector]

zanimljive tabele, statistički pregled promena rukovodećeg kadra NKVD-a za period 34-41:

 

socijalno poreklo rukovodećeg kadra NKVD-a

 

http://www.memo.ru/history/NKVD/kto/stattab3.htm

 

 

obrazovanje rukovodećeg kadra NKVD-a

 

 

http://www.memo.ru/history/NKVD/kto/stattab5.htm

 

 

nacionalna pripadnost rukovodećeg kadra NKVD-a

 

 

http://www.memo.ru/history/NKVD/kto/stattab4.htm

 

 

edit:link za ukrajinski NKVD, neispravan u prvom postu:

 

http://www.memo.ru/history/NKVD/kto/reg2.htm#_VPID_176

Edited March 7, 2014 by slow

[Lord Protector]

Rusi su u rukovodećem aparatu NKVD-a bili zastupljeni sa oko 30% početkom tridesetih. Velika glad, Golodomor, se u Ukrajini dogodila 32-33. To nikako ne može biti ruski genocid nad Ukrajincima. Može se samo govoriti o sovjetskim zločinima i sovjetskom genocidu.

Edited March 7, 2014 by slow

[Roger Sanchez]

 

“Kryivka” is the very first unique thematic restaurant of Lviv, where cute waitresses in uniform and with sham guns will service you, and, apart from the possibility to taste delicious Ukrainian food, you can even shoot with blanks into the ceiling from different gun of World WarII. The restaurant is located in historical center of the city, on Market  Square and is made quite clandestine. When you finally find it out, it appears that the main door is shut. How to enter? Knock the small window and a guard opens a window for you with the exclaim: “Slava Ukrainy” (“Glory to Ukraine”). You need to answer: “Geroyam slava” (“Glory to the Heroes”) and at the very moment you are let in. After this you are offered to drink a small glass of Ukrainian mead vodka and pointed out to the entrance of the restaurant itself through the open doors of the wardrobe you stand by. YES! This is a real “Bandera hideout” (UPA soldier’s dugout). The interior of the restaurant distinctly conveys period look of a real wood dugout of WWII: weapons and different national items of the war… Be sure that your impressions will be unforgettable!

[Prospero]

Hiroaki Kuromiya. Conscience on Trial: The Fate of Fourteen Pacifists in Stalin's Ukraine, 1952-1953. Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 2012. x + 212 pp. $60.00 (cloth), ISBN 978-1-4426-4461-8.

 

Reviewed by Kayla Hester (Mississippi State University)

Published on H-War (March, 2014)

 

Commissioned by Margaret Sankey

 

 

On a November night in 1952, Soviet police descended upon the homes of more than a dozen individuals in the city of Bila Tserkva in central Ukraine. Soviet officials suspected that these poor, barely educated people belonged to an outlawed religious sect called the Reformed Adventists, which subscribed to pacifism and the Saturday Sabbath. Through his book Conscience on Trial: The Fate of Fourteen Pacifists in Stalin’s Ukraine, 1952-1953, historian Hiroaki Kuromiya seeks to illuminate this single example of Joseph Stalin’s oppressive reign over the Soviet Union through the study of these individuals. Specifically, Kuromiya utilizes the case file of the arrests, interrogations, and trails of these Ukrainians to construct “the mechanism of political repression … in Stalin’s last days” and decipher how exactly Soviet citizens became entrapped in this system (p. 6).

 

Kuromiya’s sources are remarkable, as he found the entire set of trail records, covering every stage of the investigation, almost completely intact. Housed in the archive of the Security Service of Ukraine, the entire case file is nearly nine hundred pages in length, mostly front and back, tightly bound, and written almost completely in longhand. The arduous undertaking of deciphering these records took the author three summers, but the detailed snapshot it provides of the workings of the Soviet judicial system is extraordinary. As Kuromiya notes in his introduction, he borrows from the microhistorial methodology of Carol Ginzburg’s The Cheese and the Worms (1992). In the same way that Ginzburg analyzed the court records of an Italian miller during the Inquisition in order to elucidate the world in which he lived, Kuromiya used the trial reports of these fourteen Ukrainians to provide “insights into the minds of those swept up in Stalin’s terror machine” (p. 6).

 

Kuromiya begins by chronicling the arrest of the accused, all but one being simultaneously apprehended by Soviet police. Drawing from the police records, the author provides detailed descriptions of each individual, including year and place of birth, occupation, family information, and any objects taken from the suspect’s home. Accompanying this information are striking photographs, “mug shots” taken of each suspect, that add an incredible personal dimension to Kuromiya’s narrative. The quiet lives behind these images were mostly characterized by intense poverty, unemployment, and marginality. Still, the Soviet government perceived this group as a national security threat because of their suspected religious ties to Reformed Adventism. This was a splinter group of the Seventh-Day Adventists, whose doctrine had originally promoted pacifism and rejection of military service, and observing the Saturday Sabbath by not laboring that day. However, the Seventh-Day Adventists in the USSR had discarded these two tenets in the decades before because they conflicted with Soviet laws. Those who opposed this change and left the church to form their own new organization became known as the Reformed Adventists. Government officials believed that these individuals arrested in Bila Tserkva were not only affiliated with this sect and thus rejecting Soviet authority, but that they were also attempting to spread their beliefs and anti-Soviet sentiment, which constituted a major crime.

 

The book then moves into an examination of the interrogations, where the author calls into question the credibly of the records and uses this case as an example of how Soviet authorities routinely forged confessions in order to “prove” the guilt of a suspect. For instance, one of those arrested, Fedora Il’chenko, characterized the Reformed Adventists, to which she claimed to belong, as an “anti-Soviet” and “underground” group. As the author deduces, it is very improbable that she would have used such provocative terminology; more likely, the police took advantage of the fact that she was illiterate and forged her confession of guilt. In another interrogation of Liubov’ Fedorchuk, the investigators reported the suspect as stating: “I indeed raised my son … in an anti-Soviet spirit and tried to induce him into the Adventist community, but I failed. Now he lives … [a] normal way of life” (p. 93). Again, it seems curious that a devout Reform Adventist would have charactered her son’s secular life as “normal”; thus it appears that the police embellished her confession as well. Furthermore, in the case of Gavriil Belik’s interrogation, police claimed that he admitted his absolute refusal to serve in the military if required, or even to work in military factories. However, when police collected Belik’s belongings from his home, they recorded that they seized his military service card, proving that Belik had actually served in the military at a point in his life. This also points to the fact that his “confession” was a police fabrication. Between the lines of these records, Kuromiya also finds probable evidence of aggressive interrogation tactics. In many cases, the Soviet police officials only took down a few meager pages of notes for an questioning session that spanned six or seven hours. Kuromiya deduces that this means the suspects attempted to resist questioning for a long time and that “intimidation and threat were applied to extract necessary confessions” (p. 69). To the author, the interrogation records of these individuals were almost entirely an invention by Soviet investigators.

 

Kuromiya then examines the trials of the accused Reformed Adventists, which further uncovers the falsehoods within the interrogation records. Despite their supposed confessions of guilt during the interrogation period, all of the suspects but one pleaded not guilty during the trial. Many of the inconsistencies within the police reports and accusations came to light throughout the trial, but the defense council did nothing to highlight them. Clearly, as Kuromiya argues, “the guilt of the accused and the sentences against them were predetermined … the court was merely pro forma” (p. 159). Ultimately, the judge ruled that ten of the accused would serve twenty-five years of correctional labor, and the other four would serve ten years. Fortunately for the accused, however, Stalin died just a few months after their imprisonment, and in the process of de-Stalinization that followed, Kuromiya found records that Soviet officials released all but two.

 

After examining the whole trail process of these fourteen accused, Kuromiya reaches a series of fascinating conclusions about some of the accused. He concludes that one of the suspects, Vasilii Fedorovich Belokon', was most likely working for the Soviet police to implicate this group. Belokon' was the only suspect who did not get a mug shot, he was the only one to refuse to speak for the entire trial, and, as Kuromiya uncovered, his son had refused to serve in the army during World War II and yet this information did not surface during the trial. In the author’s mind, it is likely that Belokon' agreed to collaborate with Soviet police in return for the release of his son from the gulag. It is likely, since Kuromiya was unable to locate information on him after he was imprisoned, that Soviet officials quietly exonerated Belokon' for his help in the case. In addition, the author deduced that two other defendants, the youngest and oldest of the group, were likely broken by the police and worked with them throughout the entire process.

 

Ultimately, Kuromiya contends that the whole criminal case was a complete police fabrication. Apart from the fact that members of this group refused to work on Saturdays because of their faith, which was not a criminal offense, none of the other charges against them were proven by Soviet officials during this trial. It was not likely that they were involved in an illegal, anti-Soviet group; indeed, from what Kuromiya can deduce, the vast majority of the group were not even familiar with the term “Reformed Adventist” and therefore had no official organization ties to the sect. There was also no proof of these individuals’ outright refusal of military service, and many of them had even agreed to serve in the military at some point in their life. The allegation that they were involved in anti-Soviet agitation and propaganda also had no founding in evidence, as these were very private people, living on the margins of Soviet society, with no history of spreading anti-Soviet sentiments. The only “proof” that Soviet officials recorded were their confessions of guilt during the interrogation period, which were almost certainly gained through coercion, threat, and even torture.

 

Though going to such elaborate lengths to imprison a group of individuals who were not an obvious national security threat may seem bizarre, the author notes that this was a very common practice of the Soviet government. Repeatedly, the Soviet government essentially fabricated entire trails such as this one. This was because the regime feared ideas and faiths that did not exactly conform to the Soviet system. As Kuromiya argues, “whether any of them collaborated with the police at the trial does not negate the possibility that among the defendants there were devout and principled believers” (pp. 183-184). And those believers represented “a moral universe deeply private and separate from the official, atheist and revolutionary regime” (pp. 6-7). In this way, the author believes that these Adventists represent a microcosm of the Soviet people as a whole and the ways that the regime attempted to infiltrate the private and personal spheres of its citizens.

 

Conscience on Trial is an outstanding glimpse into this fascinating aspect of Soviet history. Kuromiya has utilized a wide variety of secondary sources on Soviet and religious history, many of them in the Ukrainian and Russian languages. Furthermore, his ability to decipher the Ukrainian police reports to create this analysis is outstanding. Many of his conclusions involved a lot of conjecture and reading between the lines because the source material did not always appear credible. This can be problematic for a less astute historian, but Kuromiya has reached thoughtful and logical conclusions that are convincing for the reader. Overall, Kuromiya has provided a valuable and interesting look into the inner workings of the Soviet judicial system in the Stalin era.

[hazard]

Istoricari dajte neku relativno objektivnu istoriju Ukrajine za citanje (tj. preporucite neku knjigu)

[Prospero]

nisam poznavalac, a sebi sam skinuo ovo pre neki dan:

 

 

 

zbornik je u pitanju, dakle teme i pristupi variraju, a odskaču od onoga što je smatrano zapadnim & sovjetskim mejnstrimom.

 

plus što ima istoriografski osvrt, tj. ne bavi se samo istorijom nego i istorijskom naukom o ukrajini.

[Yoda]

Evo ovde 1 razgovor Kasjanova i Milera o ukrajinsko-ruskim percepcijama u pisanju istorije:

 

http://polit.ru/article/2009/06/18/ukr/

[Anduril]

Puno hvala!

Prosto mnogo sam puta video potezanje holodomora po forumima. I to obicno bez neke opozicije ucesnika u diskusiji :(

Eno ga Anduril kao primer na ovom forumu.

 

Ako ti nije tesko: sta je red velicine broja zrtava staljinove diktature?

Ja nikad Holodomor nisam potezao kao genocid.

Potezao sam ga jednostavno kao katastrofu uzrokovanu autoritarnim ljudskim sistemom.

Slicno kao i glad u Irskoj tokom 19. veka - i tu su direktan uzrok bila autoritarna metodologija vlasti bez obzira na nominalni liberalizam.

 

Edit: i da, dovoljno za sta?

 

 

Dovoljno da se odgovarajuce okarakterise staljinisticki rezim.

[namenski]

Ja nikad Holodomor nisam potezao kao genocid.

Potezao sam ga jednostavno kao katastrofu uzrokovanu autoritarnim ljudskim sistemom.

Slicno kao i glad u Irskoj tokom 19. veka - i tu su direktan uzrok bila autoritarna metodologija vlasti bez obzira na nominalni liberalizam.

 

 

Dovoljno da se odgovarajuce okarakterise staljinisticki rezim.

 

Slazem se.

Narocito danas iz konforne pozicije kopanja po istoriji i svakovrsnog moralisanja na zadate teme.

Samo, poprilicno sam siguran da su ga, na primer, pretekli logorasi Ausvica tamo negde za novu 1945. godinu, vdeli kao najoslobodilackiji rezim koji se moze zamisliti.

I - nekako mi se njihova karakterizacija vise vazi od te tvoje samozadovoljno uljuljkane u svest o posedovanju alata da presudjujes.

[apostata]

@namenski_01

 

Yeah!

[pere urban x]

.

Edited March 12, 2014 by pere urban x

[pere urban x]

Snaga Rusije može biti potkopana samo ako se od nje odvoji Ukrajina. Oni koji žele to da urade, ne samo da ih moraju odvojiti, već Ukrajinu moraju suprotstaviti Rusiji, zakrviti dva dela jednog naroda i gledati kako brat ubija brata. Da bi to ostvarili potrebno je pronaći i odgojiti izdajnike među nacionalom elitom i uz pomoć njih izmeniti samo svest jednog dela velikog naroda do takvog nivoa da mrze sve rusko, da mrze svoj rod a da to ni ne znaju. Ostalo će učiniti vreme.

Oto fon Bizmark (1815-1898) - nemački kancelar

 

Нема релевантних доказа да су ово Бизмаркове речи, руски сајтови су преплављени а прелива се и код нас, дакле - до даљег, ово се има сматрати као злоупотреба политичког трача.

 

[namenski]

A, pa nije to bez nista: ceznjivi nemacki pogledi na Ukrajinu, mesto gde se pravi Nemac moze da konacno izistinski najede, nisu tek tako.

Obaska tevtonsko uzivanje u perspektivi da stare kosti greju na suncu Gotenland-a da ne kazem Krima koji Adolf nije dao pod Reichskommisariat Ukraine gde je trebalo da se nasele i dugo i srecno zive nemacki kolonisti, farmeri do korena plave dlake. Ono, i da su doziveli da zive tamo nasao bi se danas neko da zakuka nad njihovom hudom sudbom kada bi ih krenuli nazad, onako surovo kako su to svi uradili jadnim Nemcima koji su, eto, samo hteli da zderu.

Ide ono vec ofucano, Sevastopolj kao Theodorichshafen, Simferopolj kao Gothenburg, itd, itd, onako nezno po germanski...

 

 

Zabavno je, inace, setanje glavnih gradova: Nemci su hteli i primenili Rovno, da tamo stoluje poznati civilizator Erich Koch po teorijiskim smernicama poznatog filozofa Rosenberga, crveni su za glavni grad proglasili Harkov, pa ga premestili u Kijev, Poljaci su i u sred sovjetske ere znali da isporiha zapevaju pesmicu o tome kako ce kad-tad da piske u Dnjepar, a cak se i Rumuni umesali mada to vec spada u onu pricu u kojoj i zec dize onu stvar...

[pere urban x]

Украјина као меки трбух Русије је историјска и геополитичка реалност, само сам написао да нема података о веродостојности ове изјаве и да је, по свој прилици, производ маште или калем на неку реченицу коју је овај некада изговорио.

Искрено бих волео да ме неко демантује.

 

Како си изненада прелетео у Други светски рат, морам да кажем - руку у ватру сам могао да ставим да је Крим био део Рајхскомесаријата Украјина. Којим то подацима располажеш?

Подели их са нама, знам да ти неће тешко пасти  ^_^