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Dogadjanja u Ukrajini

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Budja

Problem je sto pored Poljske, pretpostavljam, Ukrajinci mogu da vide i primer Belorusije koja je na ruskoj sisi pa joj ekonomski nista ne fali.

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Prospero

Kačim ovo pre svega zbog boldovanog dela

Due West: How Far Will Russia Go to Get Ukraine in Its Eurasian Union?18:10 16/12/2013 Weekly column by Konstantin von EggertTags: Eurasian Union, Vladimir Putin, Ukraine, RussiaIf anyone had any doubts about how serious Russian President Vladimir Putin is about the idea of a Eurasian Union, they should banish them now. After his annual address Thursday to the Federal Assembly – a joint session of both houses of parliament plus the cabinet, regional governors and other dignitaries – his determination to do everything possible to make the union a tangible reality became quite clear.The president's new proposals include opening up the Russian higher education system to high school graduates from all over the Commonwealth of Independent States, who would compete with Russians for university places. Add Putin's staunch refusal to introduce visas for nationals of former Soviet republics in Central Asia, and his singling out of “so-called nationalists” as a political threat, and you see a man on a mission to create (or recreate, depending on one's political viewpoint) what one Moscow wit called “Empire 3.0.” So-called Eurasianism has become if not official ideology, then at least Russian foreign policy's dominant trend.Coming against the background of the political crisis in Ukraine, Putin's speech serves as a reminder that he has not given up trying to lure Ukraine into the Customs Union and later the Eurasian Union, which is due to officially come into being in 2015. Moreover, events in Ukraine have become a bone of contention between Moscow and Brussels, creating an acute sense in the Kremlin of geopolitical challenge or even a threat to Russian interests coming from the EU.Russian and Ukrainian government officials are preparing to sign a series of far-reaching economic agreements on December 17, including lifting all bans on the import of Ukrainian foodstuffs and agricultural products into Russia. The Moscow diplomatic rumor mill has it that there is a caveat: Produce from Ukraine's five western regions – the hotbed of Ukrainian nationalism spearheading the protests – will be denied access to the Russian market. :oIf this turns out to be true, it means that Moscow will not hesitate to deepen Ukrainian divisions in order to achieve its goals. The price to pay for Ukraine's eventual accession to the Eurasian Union could be steep indeed. Moscow may have to plug the $15 billion hole in its neighbor's budget in order to help President Viktor Yanukovych to stay afloat. In exchange, Russian government-affiliated structures may get Ukrainian military hardware production facilities and maybe even a controlling stake in the country's natural gas pipeline network. Even if a pro-European president replaces Yanukovych, they may face such a significant Russian presence in Ukraine’s economy that disregarding Moscow’s wishes in favor of the EU would become problematic to say the least.Putin clearly sees the Eurasian Union project as his legacy and an alternative to Western values systems: the US one based on the idea of individual freedom, and the European one grounded in the ideas of justice and compromise. It looks like official Russia wants to show that the “development without democracy” slogan mostly associated with Chinese policies is as good for the former Soviet states, especially since Russia and most of its neighbors are more democratic than still-Communist China anyway.This strategy is not without risks. Firstly, the integration of Ukraine into the Russian sphere of influence is by no means ensured. Bearing in mind the volatility of Ukrainian politics nothing can be excluded. Moreover, in the medium to long term, Ukrainian nation building will continue apace, based on the ideas of separateness from Russia and closeness to the EU.Without Ukraine, the political and economic meaning of the Eurasian Union is not very evident to the Russian people already weary from the high level of immigration from Central Asia, which in the absence of Ukraine would form the bedrock of the union. This in turn would lead to the inevitable growth of Russian nationalist sentiment intrinsically inimical to the idea of integration with non-Slavic states.The Kremlin’s Eurasian project is still not wholly defined. But it will no doubt impact not only Russia’s neighbors – including the EU and China – but will remain a contentious and potentially explosive issue domestically.Konstantin von Eggert is a freelance commentator and consultant. In 2010-2013 he worked for Kommersant FM radio in Moscow as a commentator and as Editor-in-Chief. He was Diplomatic Correspondent for Izvestia in the 1990s and later the BBC Russian Service Moscow Bureau Editor. Konstantin has also spent some time working as ExxonMobil Vice President in Russia. He was made Honorary Member of the Order of the British Empire by Queen Elizabeth II.

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April
Rusija odobrila Ukrajini pomoc od preko $20 milijardi, na razlicite nacine:
  • GAZPROM TO SELL GAS TO UKRAINE AT $268.50
  • UKRAINE BENEFITING FROM DISCOUNT ON RUSSIAN GAS
  • RUSSIA TO USE SOVEREIGN WEALTH FUND TO INVEST IN UKRAINE
  • RUSSIA TO INVEST $15B IN UKRAINIAN SECURITIES

Rusi...sve im traži, samo pare nemoj.Popizdim kad prepoznam obrazac već primenjen u guberniji Srbiji. 'Subjekat na energetskoj karti Evrope', 'regionalno čvorište' i opšte slavlje zbog izdavanja soba ruskim radnicima u Šajkašima. Postaju nervozni samo kad se dođe do cifara. Jeblo ih veslo koje ih prevezlo.

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Zaz_pi

A, da, mozes po tom pitanju biti prilicno spokojan posto mislim da od Juznog toka nece biti nista. Uostalom, to je i zelja Brisela/Vasingtona i dobrog dela nase vlasti i opozicije. Pare koje su namenjenen za gradnju, oko $40 milijardi, ce biti preusmerene na Ukrajinu, Belorusiju, Jermeniju; prosirivanje Severnog toka prema Nemackoj, Holandiji i Francuskoj; povecanje kapaciteta prema Turskoj, mozda roknu nesto prema Grcima pa prema Italiji ako kupe grcku Depu, gde ponovo traju pregovori...

Gas compromise of the EU and Russia leaves SOCAR without Greece

2013 December 17 ( Tuesday ) 13:58:23 Русский Azərbaycan A pompous signing of a major agreement in Baku of Azerbaijan State Oil Company SOCAR buying the public gas network DESFA of the Greek natural gas monopoly DEPA was disrupted on Tuesday.Formally signing breakdown occurred due to the impossibility of arrival in Baku of the Greek delegation headed by Prime Minister Antonis Samaras. The plane took off in Athens the evening of December 16, but then was forced to land due to a technical malfunction, according to the Greek media. The delegation could not find another aircraft.But on Tuesday it became known that the Russian state company Gasprom offered 16 December more favorable terms of the purchase of DEPA together with DESFA, told Greek newspaper Ekathimerini.The privatization of the Public Gas Corporation (DEPA) will be delayed, sell-off fund TAIPED chief Constantinos Maniatopoulos told Reuters on Monday, given that Gasprom is the only interested party. “Russia has said it would be interested in any new tender. Let’s see,» he said. "But with just one bidder it’s difficult to call a new tender,” stressed Maniatopoulos

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Filipenko

Koliko je para nudila EU?

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Budja
Rusi...sve im traži, samo pare nemoj.Popizdim kad prepoznam obrazac već primenjen u guberniji Srbiji. 'Subjekat na energetskoj karti Evrope', 'regionalno čvorište' i opšte slavlje zbog izdavanja soba ruskim radnicima u Šajkašima. Postaju nervozni samo kad se dođe do cifara. Jeblo ih veslo koje ih prevezlo.
Ne razumem. Subvencije za gas, na primer, nisu pare?

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Cane Vukic Prebranac
Koliko je para nudila EU?
800 милиона, ако се не варам.

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Filipenko

Pa dobri su :lol: I to kapiram da je 80% toga bilo uslovljeno nabavkama neke robe sa zapada po napumpanim cenama.

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Pontijak

nista nije kao u proslom veku. nema armade sa zapada koja bi oslobodila ukrajinu zle ruske tiranije. nema generala vlasova i njegove armije. spalo se na spin doktore i promovisanje boksera bez mozga kao svetionika demokratije i nade za slododnu ukrajinu. eh.

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Prospero

^^ 610 miliona evra za mikrofinansijsku stabilnost, plus mogućnost nekih projekata jer je oko 60 ministarstava i agencija iz zemalja EU u okviru EaP spakovalo projekte iz svojih domena za reformu ukrajinske uprave, ne znam koliko bi to novca iznosilo, svakako ne u stotinama miliona.edit: ukrajina je realno u buli, ko je uvuče u svoju orbitu natovario je sebi tešku i brojnu sirotinju na vrat koja će ga za par godina mrzeti jer joj nije ništa posebno dobro doneo. :( lose-lose situacija...

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dillinger
nista nije kao u proslom veku. nema armade sa zapada koja bi oslobodila ukrajinu zle ruske tiranije. nema generala vlasova i njegove armije. spalo se na spin doktore i promovisanje boksera bez mozga kao svetionika demokratije i nade za slododnu ukrajinu. eh.
Da je tako ne bi Putin ovakve adute vadio. Tek ćemo se nagledati svačeg tamo.

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Anduril
Naravno, s obzirom da se napajamo propagandaom sa drugog izvora.
Koja propaganda? Mislis na suve brojke koje pokazuju da su ostale istocnoevropske drzave u EU orbiti napredovale daleko vise?
Podeljeno drustvo, ekonomske koriste maglovite. Sta ostaje? Sloboda, pravna drzava, yes how no.
Ovo neka sala? Jel ti ozbiljno tvrdis da recimo jedna Poljska (ekonomsko-socijalno) najslicnija Belorusiji ili Ukrajini nije neizmerno napredovala upravo zahvaljujuci EU u svim domenima gore? Balticke drzave?
Ostaje samo antiruski sentiment na zapadu Ukrajine.
Postojao i postoji takav sentiment i u istocnoj Evropi i to iz veoma dobrog razloga - neposrednog iskustva sa prethodnom inkarnacijom KGB drzave.
U ovom sukobu nema apsolutno nista principijelno za sta moze da se uhvati, pa da se podrzava jedna ili druga strana.
Znaci sada je KGB drzava isto sto i EU? Jel mozes ovo onako principijelno da potkrepis nekim podacima - pocni od politickog sistema, slobodnih izbora, socijalne drzave itd.
Problem je sto pored Poljske, pretpostavljam, Ukrajinci mogu da vide i primer Belorusije koja je na ruskoj sisi pa joj ekonomski nista ne fali.
Ekonomski nista ne fali? Belorusija ima GDP p/c nekih 15K, Ukrajina 7K, KGB 17K, Poljska 20K, Balticke drzave oko 21K, Slovacka 24K a Ceska 27K.I da, od kada se racunaju samo ekonomske a ne i politicke posledice uticaja KGB drzave u Belorusiji?I trece, ciji je uticaj na Ukrajinu (pre svega ekonomski preko njihovih oligarha) bio veci u poslednjih 25 godina, EU ili KGB-a?
Koliko je para nudila EU?
I ovde dolazimo do sustine. Nijedna drzava se nije razvila iskljucivo od dotacija i geostrateskih poklona.Naprotiv, obicno se tako unazadjuju jer od tih para profitira uglavnom vladajuca oligarhija a drzava postaje banana republika.U EU placaju KGB gas mnogo skuplje pa im je ipak bolje. Niska cena KGB gasa uvek ima mnogo visu realnu cenu.

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Prospero

Jebada :(

Luhansk: The Ukrainian city where Lenin still standsBy Steve Rosenberg BBC News, Luhansk, Ukraine _71761173_71761172.jpgSteve Rosenberg visits Luhansk, which favours links with Russia over the EUIn the centre of Luhansk, I see no barricades, no pro-Europe protest camps. What I do see makes me think I'm back in the USSR.As I walk around the town, I count four Lenin statues, I take a stroll down Soviet Street and Young Communist Lane. All the street signs and the shop fronts are in Russian. But then Russia is close by; the EU feels very distant.At the Luhansk Locomotive Factory, they're looking east, not west. That's hardly surprising when you consider who buys all their trains."My factory is practically 100% dependent on the Russian market because all of our production goes to Russian Railways. It is the only customer we have," General Director Pavel Cesnek says._71776615_photo2.jpgThis poster in Luhansk reads: "Goodbye Europutschists: Fly off to your fairy-tale forest"_71776617_020360265-1.jpgPro-EU protests have continued in Kiev since President Yanukovych backed out of a landmark dealThe locomotive factory is one of many enterprises in eastern Ukraine - the country's industrial heartland - which rely on Russia for customers. And the company doesn't want those economic ties with Moscow damaged by any deal with the EU."Political aspects are one thing," Pavel says, "but most important for the workers is how to live, how to stay alive, how to get your salary on time and feed your family. That would definitely be harder without Russia."As I leave the factory, one of the workers, Vladimir, comes up to me and accuses Europe of double standards. He tells me that the same group that destroyed the Lenin statue in Kiev earlier this month has also made anti-Semitic and anti-Russian remarks."Europe looks on and calls this democracy," Vladimir says. "But since when has fascism become democracy? Where are Europe's moral values? What's happened to Europe? Has she gone blind?"_71776355_valentina.jpgValentina Semyonova believes closer EU ties would mean higher pricesAt the little bread shop down the road, they've just delivered a batch of freshly baked loaves and pensioner Valentina Semyonova is queuing up for hers. I ask Valentina what she thinks of the anti-government protests in the capital. She fears closer ties with the EU would raise prices and make life harder."Those protesters on Independence Square are fools," Valentina says. "If I was president I would chase them off the square and unite Ukraine with Russia - and with Putin. The EU would just milk us for all we've got. We'd get nothing in return."Not everyone in Luhansk is anti-Europe. I witness an argument on the street where the council is recruiting volunteers to go to Kiev to support President Viktor Yanukovych. One passer-by accuses the people signing up of doing it for money. She backs the protesters. But she's a minority in this town.I go to meet the mayor of Luhansk, Sergei Kravchenko. He's a member of President Yanukovych's party. Mayor Kravchenko assures me there are plenty of things about Europe he likes, such as the standard of living and the rule of law. But he sees no benefit for his own town in provoking Russia through an Association Agreement with Brussels."Russia's been playing hard ball recently," the Mayor tells me, "and making it difficult for us to export our goods there. If Russia were to block our exports completely, then 22,000 jobs will be lost in this town alone. We must consider that."And yet it's not Russian pressure that people in Luhansk resent most. It's the pro-European protesters in Kiev and western Ukraine."I think the three regions of Eastern Ukraine - Luhansk, Donetsk and Kharkiv - should break away from all those nationalists in the west of the country," shop assistant Alexei tells me."Put up a border! Turn ourselves into a separate country. If I could afford it, I'd go to Kiev and help the riot police crush that revolution. Those protesters should be put to work down the coal mines."I tell Alexei that what he's suggesting - dividing Ukraine into two - sounds like a new kind of Berlin wall.He shrugs his shoulders."Well, we'll be fine here in the East," he assures me. "We've got all the industry, we've got all the coal. Everyone else is living at our expense."

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Filipenko
nista nije kao u proslom veku. nema armade sa zapada koja bi oslobodila ukrajinu zle ruske tiranije. nema generala vlasova i njegove armije. spalo se na spin doktore i promovisanje boksera bez mozga kao svetionika demokratije i nade za slododnu ukrajinu. eh.
Realno, ono ključno što fali iz prošlog veka je štampanje više (desetina) milijardi po kratkom postupku i upumpavanje u istočnoevropske ekonomije. Da su ovo devedesete, nikakav problem ne bi bio podmiriti Ukrajinu. Ali jebiga, velikim demokratama kasa omršavila.
Koja propaganda? Mislis na suve brojke koje pokazuju da su ostale istocnoevropske drzave u EU orbiti napredovale daleko vise?
Pogledati ovo iznad. Uostalom, neka uzmu tih 610 miliona plus projekte i potpišu ugovor, ne sumnjam da će visoko napredovati.

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Zaz_pi
Koja propaganda? Mislis na suve brojke koje pokazuju da su ostale istocnoevropske drzave u EU orbiti napredovale daleko vise?
Primera radi kada moraju da konfiskuju privatnu imovinu da bi vracali dugove kao Poljaci.
Ovo neka sala? Jel ti ozbiljno tvrdis da recimo jedna Poljska (ekonomsko-socijalno) najslicnija Belorusiji ili Ukrajini nije neizmerno napredovala upravo zahvaljujuci EU u svim domenima gore? Balticke drzave?
Napredovala je manje od Belorusije/Rusije po rastu BDP ali je zato vise rasla po javnom dugu u poslednjih 10ak godina.
Ekonomski nista ne fali? Belorusija ima GDP p/c nekih 15K, Ukrajina 7K, KGB 17K, Poljska 20K, Balticke drzave oko 21K, Slovacka 24K a Ceska 27K.I da, od kada se racunaju samo ekonomske a ne i politicke posledice uticaja KGB drzave u Belorusiji?I trece, ciji je uticaj na Ukrajinu (pre svega ekonomski preko njihovih oligarha) bio veci u poslednjih 25 godina, EU ili KGB-a?
Izvukao si podatke kako tebi odgovaraju jer npr. po SB Rusija je jaca od svih, sto nije bilo ni za vreme SSSR.Osim vec pomenutog duga mogao bi da izbacis podatke o nezaposlenosti.edit: osim Cehoslovaka, da se ispravim. Kako ide, nece ni oni dugo.
I ovde dolazimo do sustine. Nijedna drzava se nije razvila iskljucivo od dotacija i geostrateskih poklona.Naprotiv, obicno se tako unazadjuju jer od tih para profitira uglavnom vladajuca oligarhija a drzava postaje banana republika.U EU placaju KGB gas mnogo skuplje pa im je ipak bolje. Niska cena KGB gasa uvek ima mnogo visu realnu cenu.
Osim EU ili Belorusije, koja je 2008 bila u rangu sa nama po BDP po glavi stanovnika a sada su jaci za nekih 40%. Sama ideja EU je geostrateska misija koja je finansirana novcem iz Amerike i sirovinama iz americkih prijateljskih drzava kako bi se pariralo SSSR i njegovom ekonomskom bloku.Spreman sam svaki napisan podatak da branim dokazima, sto se nadam nece desiti jer ljudi i sami mogu da provere. Edited by Zaz_pi

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