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noskich

Distopije i utopije (u filmu, knjizevnosti, filozofiji i stvarnom zivotu)

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Aineko
Poenta i tog teksta o Ikariji ciji je autor ziveo na ostrvu 15 meseci i videa jeste da je daleko od dovoljnog hraniti se zdravo i imati fizicku aktivnost, celokupna zivotna situacija i okruzenje su jedino resenje.
pa moj post je znacio da ta poenta moze lako da bude pogresna, tj da nije do citavog okruzenja i celokupne zivotne situacije vec mozda nekih drugih faktora (npr. jel postoje podaci za potomke ostrvljana koji su se odselili - ne za jednu osobu, vec neki statisticki znacajan uzorak itd. - mnogo bi tu istrazivanja moglo da se odradi pre nego se nesto tvrdi).

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noskich

Evo oblasti sa natprosecnim zivotnim vekom i zdravstvenim stanjem koje je autor teksta identifikovao: http://www.bluezones.com/about/ Na svim lokacijama su prisutne zajednicke osobine: jaka lokalna zajednica i povezanost medju ljudima, nezagadjena sredina, zdrava hrana, relativno fizicki donekle izolovane lokacije, smislen rad koji te ispunjava. Ikarija, Loma Linda, Nikoja, Okinava i Sardinija.http://www.bluezones.com/live-longer/power-9/

Edited by noskich

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Aineko

ovo sto si linkovao samo leads to more questions ako zelis da ga upotrebljavas kao dokaz za tvoju tvrdnju da je fin. nezavisnost plus sve ostalo jedini nacin da se zivi duze i zdravije. npr., zasto to nije slucaj i kod ostalih zajednica po svetu koje zive u slicnim okolnostima (odnosno, koliki je genetski udeo u vecini ovih zajednica, tj onim zaista fizicki izolovanim).drugo, zar ovi adventisti iz Lima Londe upravo ne dokazuju suprotno od onog sto ti tvrdis da bas svi faktori moraju da se ispune i da to moze samo fin. nezavisnoscu?

Poenta i tog teksta o Ikariji ciji je autor ziveo na ostrvu 15 meseci i videa jeste da je daleko od dovoljnog hraniti se zdravo i imati fizicku aktivnost, celokupna zivotna situacija i okruzenje su jedino resenje.
ako ja dobro shvatam (nemam vremena da trazim po netu, pa mozda gresim) njihova zivotna situacija je slicnija situaciji prosecnog amerikanca, sa poslovima, kucama itd., a ne situaciji na grckom ostrvu? ali imaju jaku kulturu zdravstvenih navika. plus sto na 60 miles east of Los Angeles tesko da zive u nezagadjenoj sredini.

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noskich

Sad brkas dve teme, finansijska nezavisnost je druga tema. U ovakvim zajednicama klasicna finansijska nezavisnost je irelevantna. Ona je relevantna za pojedinca koji zivi u mainstream drustvu u kojem je svako za sebe. Medjutim kada zivis u ovakvoj zajednici u kojoj se ljudi ispomazu nemas potrebe da imas finansijske rezerve koje bi pokrile potencijalne rizike kojima si izlozen jer imas zajednicu kao neku vrstu safety net. To je sustinska razlika izmedju utopijskog drustva i onoga sto imamo danas. U utopijskom drustvu svi su finansijski nezavisni i u tome je lepota toga.Ne znam ni ja dosta o njima. Moguce da im je zivot priblizniji mainstreamu, ali opet zive u gradicu od 20 hiljada ljudi, posveceni su porodici, njihovoj religiji i zajednici. To su ti faktori koji se stalno ponavljaju. Manje pritiska, sporiji zivotni ritam, jake veze sa ljudima oko sebe, imanje ideje o svom mestu u svetu i pravcu ka kojem se kreces u zivotu...

Edited by noskich

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Indy

Pa to vazi i ako si pripadnik mafije. Tu je Porodica.Malo ce i da te prikolju ako ih zajebes, ali boze moj.

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Aineko
Sad brkas dve teme, finansijska nezavisnost je druga tema. U ovakvim zajednicama klasicna finansijska nezavisnost je irelevantna. Ona je relevantna za pojedinca koji zivi u mainstream drustvu u kojem je svako za sebe. Medjutim kada zivis u ovakvoj zajednici u kojoj se ljudi ispomazu nemas potrebe da imas finansijske rezerve koje bi pokrile potencijalne rizike kojima si izlozen jer imas zajednicu kao neku vrstu safety net. To je sustinska razlika izmedju utopijskog drustva i onoga sto imamo danas. U utopijskom drustvu svi su finansijski nezavisni i u tome je lepota toga.Ne znam ni ja dosta o njima. Moguce da im je zivot priblizniji mainstreamu, ali opet zive u gradicu od 20 hiljada ljudi, posveceni su porodici, njihovoj religiji i zajednici. To su ti faktori koji se stalno ponavljaju. Manje pritiska, sporiji zivotni ritam, jake veze sa ljudima oko sebe, imanje ideje o svom mestu u svetu i pravcu ka kojem se kreces u zivotu...
pa ja bas imam utisak da ti po potrebi potezes cas jednu cas drugu temu kad god ti to odgovara da potkrepis svoju poentu, zato mi je i tesko da diskutujem s tobom. Sad smo maltene dosli do toga da ako imas dobar krug prijatelja, znas da sebi odredis prioritete u zivotu, kreces se i hranis se zdravo, mozes lepo i da nastavis da zivis mainstream, bez da se cimas oko fin. nezavisnosti. btw, iz ovako na brzinu guglanja, mislim da adventisti u americi i inace imaju duzi zivotni vek od proseka, ne samo ovi u Lima Londi (tj. izgleda da nema veze to sto zive u mestu od 20k stanovnika. Lima Londa je usla na ovu blue zone kartu jer ih tu ima velika koncentracija pa onda izvlace prosek za celu zajednicu).

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noskich
pa ja bas imam utisak da ti po potrebi potezes cas jednu cas drugu temu kad god ti to odgovara da potkrepis svoju poentu, zato mi je i tesko da diskutujem s tobom. Sad smo maltene dosli do toga da ako imas dobar krug prijatelja, znas da sebi odredis prioritete u zivotu, kreces se i hranis se zdravo, mozes lepo i da nastavis da zivis mainstream, bez da se cimas oko fin. nezavisnosti.
Finansijska nezavisnost je ocigledno cisto finansijski koncept, pasivni prihodi minus rashodi >0. To je to. Mozes ziveti u Tokiju sa 10K mesecno ili na Ikariji sa 500 dolara mesecno, sam u stanu ili u kuci koju delis sa 10 ljudi... Ne implicira nacin zivota.

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prima

kad smo kod komuna, slavna hipicka : drop city,colorado,usa.. koja se navodno raspala sa umnozavanjem deceali @estel, po pitanju medicinamesas razvoj tehnologija i razvoj nauke tj znanjaili ja pogresno razdvajam@indynevidljivost to the core

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Indy

Ne razumem.

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noskich

Ovaj film lepo pokazuje kako je staljinizam pojeo pravu revoluciju u spanskom gradjanskom ratu:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am2Gd_RMros

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prima
Ne razumem.
da se sad ne vracam, pricao si o tehnologijama koje ce postati nevidljive, inkorporirati se savrseno u tkivo, sjediniti se sa organskim, itd. walter jonas je cini mi se predvideo da ce u buducnosti ljudi da postepeno da se manjuju i na kraju svedu na 0 i 1 , u cilju manje okupacije prostora, dostizanja prostor-vremenske savrsenosti - znaci umesto da se artefakti modifikuju , skromni covek ce to samom sebi da ucini.evo vam jedan booze cityJust imagine a resort entirely centered on the culture of alcohol. A boozer’s paradise built expressly to facilitate drinking and the good times that naturally follow. Where the bars, clubs and liquor stores never close.” Mel Johnson’s ‘Boozetown’ was an entirely sincere proposal with street names like “Gin Lane” and “Bourbon Boulevard” that would have begun as a resort town in Middle America and eventually expanded into a full-sized adults-only city with permanent housing and its own suburbs. After many obsessed years of struggling for financing, Johnson gave up on his dream in 1960 and died in a mental hospital in 1962.

retro-futurism-boozetown.jpg

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Indy

Nisam citao tog jonasa, ali nekako verujem suprotno, ne da se ljudi nece svesti na 0 i 1, vec ce se tehnologija vozdignuti odatle u danas nezamislive nivoe kompleksnosti.

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noskich
Just imagine a resort entirely centered on the culture of alcohol. A boozer’s paradise built expressly to facilitate drinking and the good times that naturally follow.
Ovo deluje kao neka parodija. Ako je ozbiljan koncept onda je po meni rec o distopiji. U Vrlom novom svetu tu ulogu igra droga soma koja donosi uzitak bez vidljivih negativnih efekata. Neka vrsta kreiranja nove realnosti za sebe. Moze preko droga, a moze i tehnoloski kao virtualna realnost.

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noskich

Zanimljivo, ima dosta informacija ovde: http://www.drunkard....-boozetown.htmlTo je taj princip - ljudi koji dele vrednosti i zivotni stil stvaraju zajednicu po svojoj meri. Ta zajednica moze njima izgledati kao utopija dok istovremeno mnogim ljudima izvan izgleda kao distopija. Nema slobode bez odgovornosti. Hoces da se napijas do smrti - izvoli.Sve dok je na dobrovoljnoj bazi. Imas izbor da se prikljucis bilo kojoj zajednici ili da kreiras novu.Evo sta je Tolstoj pisao:HOW CAN GOVERNMENTS BE ABOLISHED?Slavery results from laws, laws are made by governments, and, therefore, people can only be freed from slavery by the abolition of governments. But how can governments be abolished? All attempts to get rid of governments by violence have hitherto, always and everywhere, resulted only in this: that in place of the deposed governments new ones established themselves, often more cruel than those they replaced. Not to mention past attempts to abolish governments by violence, according to the Socialist theory, the coming abolition of the rule of the capitalists—that is, the communalization of the means of production and the new economic order of society—is also to be carried out by a fresh organization of violence, and will have to be maintained by the same means. So that attempts to abolish violence by violence neither have in the past nor, evidently, can in the future emancipate people from violence, nor, consequently, from slavery. It cannot be otherwise. Apart from outbursts of revenge or anger, violence is used only in order to compel some people, against their own will, to do the will of others. But the necessity to do what other people wish against your own will is slavery. And, therefore, as long as any violence, designed to compel some people to do the will of others, exists, there will be slavery. All the attempts to abolish slavery by violence are like extinguishing fire with fire, stopping water with water, or filling up one hole by digging another. People must feel that their participation in the criminal activity of governments, whether by giving part of their work in the form of money, or by direct participation in military service, is not, as is generally supposed, an indifferent action, but, besides being harmful to one's self and to one's brothers, is a participation in the crimes unceasingly committed by all governments and apreparation for new crimes, which governments are always preparing by main taining disciplined armies. The age for the veneration for governments, notwithstanding all the hypnotic influence they employ to maintain their position, is more and more passing away. And it is time for people to understand that governments not only are not necessary, but are harmful and most highly immoral institutions, in which a self-respecting, honest man cannot and must not take part, and the advantages of which he cannot and should not enjoy. And as soon as people clearly understand that, they will naturally cease to take part in such deeds—that is, cease to give the governments soldiers and money. And as soon as a majority of people ceases to do this the fraud which enslaves people will be abolished. Only in this way can people be freed from slavery. And in order not to do the evil which produces misery for himself and for his brothers, he should, first of all, neither willingly nor under compulsion take any part in governmental activity, and should, therefore, be neither a soldier, nor a field-marshal, nor a minister of state, nor a tax-collector, nor a witness, nor an alderman, nor a juryman, nor a governor, nor a member of Parliament, nor, in fact, hold any office connected with violence. That is one thing. Secondly, such a man should not voluntarily pay taxes to governments, either directly or indirectly; nor should he accept money collected by taxes, either as salary, or as pension, or as a reward; nor should he make use of governmental institutions, supported by taxes collected by violence from the people. That is the second thing. Thirdly, a man who desires not to promote his own well-being alone, but to better the position of people in general, should not appeal to governmental violence for the protection of his own possessions in land or in other things, nor to defend him and his near ones; but should only possess land and all products of his own or other people's toil in so far as others do not claim them from him.

Edited by noskich

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