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Grčka - enormni dug, protesti oko mera štednje

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Milogled Bluff

@Zmicko: Meni je receno da ta floskula potice jos iz 19. veka. Naime, Grcka je neke 1895. ili tako nesto bankrotirala i bila pod nekom vrstom strane (da li austrougarske?) uprave narednih 10-15 godina.

Edited by Milogled Bluff

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Аврам Гојић

Ti koji su ih spalili ici ce u zatvor, kao sto i treba.Ono sto mene zanima jeste: da li je nekome palo na pamet da Grke mozda iritira cinjenica da nikome ne pada na pamet da zbog bankrota Grcke eventualno neko bude pozvan na odgovornost? govori se o stezanju kaisa, a niko ne govori o tome sta uraditi sa onima koji su to izazvali.

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Zmitjkoe
@Zmicko: Meni je receno da ta floskula potice jos iz 19. veka. Naime, Grcka je neke 1895. ili tako nesto bankrotirala i bila pod nekom vrstom strane (da li austrougarske?) uprave narednih 10-15 godina.
Znao sam, znaci hronicno pate™ od zaduzivanja.I, BTW, hvala na objasnjenju. Edited by Zmitjkoe

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Muwan
ММФ факат није свемоћан, али када се од њих повлаче неке паре - нека ме исправе ако грешим они који боље знају - они воле да гвирну у књиге и виде да ли цифре изгледају тако да има смисла те паре позајмљивати. Другим речима, да не бацају у бунар без дна. Наравно, могу се догодити непредвиђене ствари и цела та конструкција просто може да се сломи. Када ствари крену низбрдо, онда ни ММФ не помаже, али када се са њима уђе у игру постоји барем неко ко са стране погледа и види оно што пук не може.
Ume i MMF da žmuri na jedno, a po potrebi i na oba oka. Srbija je sasvim lep primer - prekršili smo bezmalo sve stand-by aranžmane u prethodnoj deceniji, evo prekršićemo i ovaj aktuelni (i to su zahtevi tih aranžmana po pravilu "mekši" od onoga što MMF na početku najavljuje i traži), ali sve to će proći, biti gurnuto pod tepih, zabašureno... Delom iz političkih razloga a delom zbog toga što još uvek možemo da kako-tako vraćamo kamatu.Bankama i fondovima, naprosto, nije cilj da svoj novac ne plasiraju već upravo obratno. Zbog toga često uzimaju u obzir svaku moguću olakšavajuću okolnost kako bi plasirali novac nekom ko se realno ne kvalifikuje za dobrog zajmoprimca. A kada sve to podigneš na viši nivo i uključiš politiku, eto igranke samo takve. Edited by beowl

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crtamOrasi

ne pada mi na pamet da sazaljevam grke (sem ovo troje jadnika koji su naebali ni krivi ni duzni). zasto bih sazaljevao ljude iz zemlje u kojoj se sigurno zivi lakse i bolje nego kod nas. troje ljudi je poginulo, a koliko ja vidim to se desilo zbog 13. i 14. plate.problem je sto su svoju zemlju zatrpali govnima svi zajedno. treba zajedno i da je ociste. ono sto mogu da traze je pozivanje na odgovornost ljudi krivih za ovakvo stanje. sve drugo je mlacenje prazne slame i gubljenje vremena, a sem toga moze da ima i nezeljene posledice.ionako imaju ogromnu zaposljenost i javnom sektoru, verovatno vecu i od nase.

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Zaki
Mene zanima jedna stvar, od kad znam za sebe pamtim izreku "duzan ko Grcka". Sada mi je jasno sta to znaci, ali sta je znacilo pre? Da li su Grci stalno™ duzni? Da li je to haplotipski objasnjivo?
Ima jedan članak Vuka Karadžića "Grci i Srbi" u njegovim sabranim delima (izdanje beogradske Prosvete 1969), u knjizi koju je priređivač nazvao "Istorijski spisi". Članak je iz 1835 i trebalo je da bude objavljen u nekim nemačkim novinama, ali nije, već je kasnije izvesni Jakob Falmerajer, profesor iz Minhena, preneo sve glavne teze i samo ih proširio i razvezao u predgovoru drugog dela "Istorije poluostrva Moreje". Između ostalog, Vuk kaže da su Grcima u njihovoj borbi za nezavisnost pomagali svi, Evropa, Amerika, čak i Indija, šaljući pare, vojnu opremu itd.Kaže Vuk:
Grci su dobijali milione na poklon, i milione duga napravili, ali su i pored toga do ovoga časa sve novine pune opisa o rđavom stanju njihovih finansija.
Tako da, možda nije baš haplotipski, ali jednu tradiciju svakako ima. 'Ajde da se ne vraćamo do Lucija Kornelija Sule. To je ipak nešto drugo. Edited by Zaki

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Muwan
Ono sto mene zanima jeste: da li je nekome palo na pamet da Grke mozda iritira cinjenica da nikome ne pada na pamet da zbog bankrota Grcke eventualno neko bude pozvan na odgovornost?
To bi bio 1 dobro artikulisan zahtev odnosno cilj ovog pandemonijuma na ulicama. Međutim, koliko ja pratim medije, izjave aktera su mnogo više uperene ka Papandreuovom planu štednje a mnogo manje tj. nimalo ka odgovornosti konkretnih pojedinaca ili institucija.

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Milogled Bluff
ionako imaju ogromnu zaposljenost i javnom sektoru, verovatno vecu i od nase.
Mnogo vecu. 1,1 milion ljudi, sto je preko 10% stanovnistva. Celokupnog, ne radno sposobnog.Cuo sam da je tamo bio fazon kao i ovde - masovno zaposljavanje rodjaka i prijatelja u administraciji i javnim preduzecima pre i posle svakih izbora.

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Аврам Гојић
To bi bio 1 dobro artikulisan zahtev odnosno cilj ovog pandemonijuma na ulicama. Međutim, koliko ja pratim medije, izjave aktera su mnogo više uperene ka Papandreuovom planu štednje a mnogo manje tj. nimalo ka odgovornosti konkretnih pojedinaca ili institucija.
Znaci nece ni promenu sistema, ni odgovornost pojedinaca i institucija. Hoce da stvari budu kao pre. Hm. Jako mi je tesko da se slozim sa takvom logikom.

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Zmitjkoe

@Zaki: Evo jos jednog objasnjenja, mada ne znam kako pomoc moze biti dug? A ono o haplotipovima sam se, naravno, zajebav'o.

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Аврам Гојић

Pomoc ce se drug moj vracati po kamati vezanoj za EURIBOR.

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Zmitjkoe
EURIBOR
Daj, da jos nesto naucim.

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Zaki
@Zaki: Evo jos jednog objasnjenja, mada ne znam kako pomoc moze biti dug? A ono o haplotipovima sam se, naravno, zajebav'o.
Pa nešto je bio poklon, a nešto kredit. A znam da si se zajebavao, naravno.

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Аврам Гојић
Daj, da jos nesto naucim.
pa da, koja crna pomoc. to je samo finansijska injekcija i najvece jednokratno duznicko opterecenje u savremenoj evropskoj istoriji.posto izgleda postoje nejasnoce oko uslova paketa, evo WHO WOULD LEND TO GREECE?All countries using the euro and the International Monetary Fund. Euro zone member states would contribute to the loans according to their respective holdings in the European Central Bank capital. For a detailed breakdown see: (here)BURDEN SHARING IN LOANSThe euro zone would provide two-thirds of all loans requested by Greece and the IMF would supply the remaining one-third.LENGTH OF STAND-BY LOAN PROGRAMThree yearsTHE AMOUNT30 billion euros from the euro zone in the first year. The IMF could lend Greece up to 10-to-12 times its IMF quota of $1.25 billion, which would mean $12.5 billion to $15 billion (some 11.1 billion euros). A senior Greek finance ministry official said he would expect the IMF to lend Greece at least 10 billion euros in 2010. The official also said that it was logical to expect the package would amount to significantly more than 40 billion euros over three years. Earlier, he had said it could hit 80 billion euros, but later corrected that point.Euro zone officials dismissed as a "misunderstanding" a remark by a German government spokesman earlier this week that the 30 billion would be for three years, rather than just for the first year. For the full text of the Eurogroup agreement, signed also by Germany, see: [iD:nLDE63A0GE]Some economists have expressed concern however, that while the agreement dealt with the near-term effectively, it did not address longer term problems with Greek finances and did not spell out amounts available in 2011 and 2012.INTERESTFor the euro zone, variable rate loans would be made on the basis of three-month EURIBOR rates, while fixed-rate loans will be based upon the rates corresponding to EURIBOR swap rates for the relevant maturities.On top of that, there will be a charge of 300 basis points. An additional 100 basis points will be charged for loans longer than three years. In conformity with IMF charges, a one-time service fee of maximum 50 basis points will be charged to cover operational costs.The statement said that for a three-year loan to Greece as of April 9, the interest would be "around five percent."The IMF prices its loans less, Economic and Monetary Affairs Commissioner Olli Rehn said.HOW TO GET ITGreece has to request the money, because it is unable to finance itself on the market. The ECB and the European Commission then assess if this is really the case. A unanimous decision of euro zone countries is the final go-ahead. It is unclear if that must be the heads of state and government or just finance ministers, although in either case a teleconference could be organised quickly.The ECB pays out the money while the Commission acts as a coordinator of the bilateral loans.In a step toward obtaining billions of euros in emergency loans, Greece asked on Thursday for official talks with European authorities and the International Monetary Fund on "a multi-year programme of economic policies."Greece said this "could be supported with financial assistance from the euro-area member states and the IMF, if the Greek authorities were to decide to request such assistance."Such talks clear a further hurdle for a quick pay-out of the cash, should Athens request it.CONDITIONALITYThe loans to Greece are supposed to be linked to conditions, but euro zone sources said Greece would not be asked to make deeper cuts in its budget deficit this year than it has already promised. Athens plans to reduce the gap to 8.7 percent from 12.7 percent in 2009.Any extra conditions that could be attached to the loans would more likely be linked to more structural or administrative reforms or streamlining the flow of statistics information, euro zone source said.The IMF would not impose any new conditions on Greece because the current programme is already more ambitious than the IMF would have asked for, a euro zone source said.HOW LONG BETWEEN REQUEST AND PAYOUTThe bilateral loans have to get parliamentary approval, but national governments have put the issue on an accelerated path through parliamentary economic committees so "it would be a matter of days" from the moment of request to payout, a euro zone source close to the talks said.The IMF has no need for parliamentary approval, so the disbursement of the funds from the IMF could be much faster.OBSTACLESA German economist has said he would challenge legally the constitutionality of the aid scheme, but the euro zone source said that the German government has assured the Eurogroup that according to their legal research there was no danger of losing the case. The challenge would not delay the payout of the aid, should it be requested. (Reporting by Jan Strupczewski, editing by Maureen Bavdek and Toby Chopra)

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Muwan
Znaci nece ni promenu sistema, ni odgovornost pojedinaca i institucija. Hoce da stvari budu kao pre. Hm. Jako mi je tesko da se slozim sa takvom logikom.
Ponavljam, ne mora nužno biti tako. Izbor pred kojim se nalaze je tragičan i verovatno će im trebati neko vreme da to shvate. Na ulicama nisu samo bumbari iz javnih preduzeća već i studenti, penzioneri, novinari jbt... Kapiram da bi im se i dobar deo radnika iz privatnog sektora priključio kada bi mogao, a svi imaju neke svoje razloge da budu besni. Mislim da je tvoja definicija o neartikulisanom izlivu gneva za sada najpreciznija jer ovakav bankrot se zaista retko viđa. A čekaju nas još veći i spektakularniji.

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